09/10 Capital Budget: Fire Department
I've included not only items in the first year of the budget, but also a few from the second year.
Firemen's gear:
Breathing apparatus:
Water mains improve public safety... which is obviously important. But water mains (along with sewer lines) can reduce the size of a developable lot. That is, without sewers and/or water a 20 acre piece of land may allow for ten 2-acre lots. Yet with sewers and/or water a 20 acre piece of land may allow for 40 1/2-acre lots.
Clearly that would have other impacts on the town that are worth considering as part of the bigger picture.
Aerial / snorkel truck:
Tim White
23 comments:
I didn't see anything in the dept request for sewers. Water mains should be of importance especially to anyone without hydrants in their neighborhood.
The council should consider replacing the snorkel sooner than later. If the current truck is non-compliant, it could end up costing the town considerably more if someone gets hurt. (medical costs, lawsuits, OSHA fines etc...)
"Water mains should be of importance especially to anyone without hydrants in their neighborhood."
Reality is water mains are of greater importance to developers then to those already living somewhere. I lived in a very small town with an all volunteer fire department for about 20 years. Instead of fire hydrants and town water mains there were fire ponds, pools and pumper trucks. And oh yeah, big time, high density development and hit and run developers kind of didn't exist.
Town tax payers should not be made to subsidize adding water mains and sewers in areas of town not already so developed. Let the developers and those who buy their wares pay for the stuff up front.
Radmere Road finally got hydrants last year. Years ago, a house was lost on that road because water was not easilly accessble. The idea is not to provide water mains to new developments but to put them in older neighborhoods. Currently, if there are mains in the area, builders are to put mains in their development and tie in to the existing system. So, the developers are already putting mains in at their cost which is passed on to the people buying in that development. New mains in new neighborhoods cost the town nothing but it is the towns responsability to protect those that are pre-existing the mains requirement.
"it is the towns responsability to protect those that are pre-existing the mains requirement."
So let me see, I would guess next we'll be hearing that having a fire department is just not enough either. We need hydrants every 500 feet everywhere throughout the town and in addition every residential dwelling will need a complete sprinkler system along with a 24/7 stand alone UPS power back up system to run pumps and alarm systems. And don't forget a 5 or 10 thousand gallon heated water tank to supply the sprinkler system just in case everything else fails.
Currently developed town roads which do not have water mains or sewers should remain that way unless those whose properties would be improved wish to personally pay for the upgrades. Plenty of American homes remain safe and habitable without city water lines.
If they aren't safe without hydrants the town should condemn them immediately and move the at risk residents out.
They do pay for it... They get assessed for the amount of property value increase the mains provide.
FYI.. Phil Bowman is the only builder in town voluntarily installing sprinklers into new construction homes. Not bad for a Bowman!
"They do pay for it... They get assessed for the amount of property value increase the mains provide. "
Sounds like more Town Politically Correct Speak again. Personally I thought water mains provided water not increases in property value. Maybe my thinking is hosed or something and then again - - -?
The town needs to better control its taxes. The second north end mall is toast, the second largest employer will be leaving soon, our teachers have received unjustifiably high pay raises for the next 3 years in addition to their high step increases, the town pool wastes massive sums of tax dollars, the high school has electric heat and the list just goes on and on. Now someone says lets add more water mains because it would make some homes safer than safe.
Now is not the time to be using town tax revenues to add water mains at select locations which never had them in the first place just because our volunteer fire dept wants them.
Do you have hydrants in your neighborhood? You wouldn't be against them if you didn't. Besides, a majority of the neighborhood in need are now in the southend of town.
Putting in water nmains is a ruse and are for the benefit of the local Good Ole Boys, and you know who they are. They are the people behind the need and it is only for their profit.
These people are expert at having the taxpayers paying for infrastructure project that they can profit from.
To end the insanity of taxpayer subsidizing developers, all new construction should pay a sewage hookup charge equal to an average cost of installing a septic tank the cost which would be in the $10,000 a unit cost. Any existing structure that had a failed system would be allowed to connect without any additional cost.
It's time to stop the developers from taking advantage of the Town's taxpayers. Case in point, I think Brodach will save at least $400,000 on his Weis Rd development. What a giveaway that was. I wonder how many of the closings Matt Hall will get.
"August 04, 2009 8:08 PM"
You have to be the biggest idiot to stumble onto this blog in a long time. THERE ARE NO SEWERS BEING INSTALLED WITH THIS BUDGET ITEM!!
You are either as stupid or arrogant as Tim. Look at what is on paper. The FD wants water mains installed to save your ass when you burn down your house. They dont care about property values, developments, gains and losses, etc... They want to be able to put out fires in town without having to run a dozen engines around a neighorhood to truck in the water, or ask the town to BUY another truck costing $400,000 plus. Hydrants have to be the safest, most efficient, and quickest way to get water to a fire. Or, are the White follows against even that?
"...They want to be able to put out fires in town without having to run a dozen engines around a neighorhood to truck in the water,..."
Wow, many fire departments truck water around when required. In reality, you truck it or you pipe it with hoses. Get over it, the fire department MUST deliver the water to a fire. If it can't or doesn't want to then the town government can just condemn the housing and move on or the property owner could contract with some for profit company that guarantees it will fight the fire or pay for a replacement house.
This town does not need more water mains unless you are speaking for or to some of our well known local developers and their buddies over in The Land of the Realtor or the Land of The Closing Lawyer etc.
If someone wants a water main let them pay out of their own pocket for it. Many town tax payers are fed up with initiatives mostly at the request of special interests to fund things that only result in even more tax hikes.
Not sure more water mains make sense in many areas. Must look at number of houses "protected" versus cost. With our modern fire trucks and their capacity....and the size of most houses in town...if you can't put the fire out with what is on the truck the house is a functional total loss anyway. FD wanted mains down S. Meriden Rd a few years back. Very few houses getting additional protection but a lot of development land getting a valuable town service. Hmmmmm.
As for the snorkel....this is a flim flam. The old Snorkel was replaced once...in 1993 with a $750,000 ladder truck. Town was told snorkel was "unsafe for fire fighters"...."can't get parts"....."difficult to train on".....etc etc etc. Town bought the argument believing that the snorkel would go away. It didn't and now we are being asked to "replace" it again. As for the ISO ratings, the "experts" will recommend all kinds of things to "improve" the town....why not buy two or three more ladder trucks?!! But we have to pay the bill and this truck is overkill....pure and simple. Someone needs to have a chat with the FD officers (not the rank and file) and explain financial reality. That's Milone's job isn't it?
It is obvious that nobody here lives near S Brooksvale. There are no hydrants in that area. I understand that the newest truck the fd bought carries 700 gallons of water and looks to be the same size as the other engines. According to the fd web site, these trucks have 1250 gallon per minute pumps. That means every truck can be empty in about 45 seconds. How fast can you crawl into and out of your house carrying a loved one while your house burns? Can you do it in less than 45 seconds? Can you do it in a neighbors house? They need quick access to water town wide.
Also on the fd web site, it says truck 1 is from the early 70's. I doubt parts are still being made for a truck whose manufacturer closed shop 20 years ago. The town needs a new truck to protect it's ISO rating. That rating helps not just the town but every single homeowner in town. Cheshire has the best rating a town our size can get. If the rating gets worse, every resident and property owner will pay more for every type of insurance. That includes homeowners, auto, health, life, and renters insurance. Our choice is pay a few dollars per tax payer for a new truck now, pay even more later, or everyone can risk paying much higher rates for their insurance needs monthly.
If you think you know more about firefighting than Chief Casner, go tell him how to do his job. I'm sure he would be more than happy to listen to your comments.
I would love to know how we over looked you for that job.
"There are no hydrants in that area."
So what? Face it, if there are no hydrants in that area it has been that way since about 1780 and guess what, life went on.
Why now all of a sudden after hundreds of years is it water main/fire hydrant time?
Sounds more like some slick developer maybe spends too much time lobbying the fire department management. Maybe FD management should get some training in how not to be entrapped into driving the town budget for the financial gain of some private developer.
I cannot believe we have morons in this town willing to put a price on a life. Any fire dept is only as good as the infastructure provided. Accusing the fire dept of providing for a builder is rediculous. It's already been said, but needs to be repeated for the challenged people that reply: THESE WATER MAINS ARE GOING INTO PRE EXISTING NEIGHBORHOODS, NOT NEW SUBDIVISIONS. I asked a firefighter about this topic today, and was told that the fire dept does not back political candidates and does not recommend service or repair contractors. All they care about is providing fire protection to the town of Cheshire as a voluntary group. So, there is no insider dealings, no scams, no alterior motives. If you think there are, get some solid proof or shut up. Cant wait to see your response.
Here is a little reality check for you: when you buy homeowners insurance, you are asked 2 important questions. 1- how far away is the nearest fire hydrant? 2-how far away is the nearest fire station? These questions are used to determine your rate. If you tell them that the nearest hydrant is less than 500' away, your rate will be considerably less than saying that there are no hydrants at all. That would save residents in pre existing homes a great deal of money.
P.S. - There are no "for profit" fire departments any where in the USA unless you are talking about a career department. Another big mistake to even consider.
"Any fire dept is only as good as the infastructure provided. Accusing the fire dept of providing for a builder is rediculous. "
Face facts, in this town and in many towns all across America there have been and always will be houses and whole subdivisions without fire hydrants.
As for morons in town maybe a case could be made based on your logic that all those living where there are no hydrants are the true morons. It would be based on your logic though which seems flawed at best. But that argument only works if living without hydrants is blatantly unsafe. based on the evidence living without hydrants is not unsafe and in fact homes near hydrants also catch on fire and burn down too.
It is recognized we are talking about modern day America here and in so many ways America has been losing its way. Arguments that we now need fire hydrants where none existed but people lived safely for quite some time are ridiculous.
If those living in such a dangerous area have recently awoken to their flawed ways maybe they should just run out and quickly have some licensed contractor install a state of the art home fire sprinkler system. No doubt that would be the quickest way to improve their own personal safety relative to the threat of fire. Of course, it would take individual initiative to accomplish and all too often individual initiative seems lacking in these times.
"maybe they should just run out and quickly have some licensed contractor install a state of the art home fire sprinkler system."
Great idea... BUT you need water mains to operate the system. If you have a well, the 1gpm pump will never give enough pressure or volume of water to do anything but create a steamy fire. The fire dept is trying to modernize firefighting. When they asked for the last truck, people gave them a hard time saying we do not need another truck with 85% of the town hydranted. Now, we dont even want to give them the hydrants.
"If you have a well, the 1gpm pump will never give enough pressure or volume of water to do anything but create a steamy fire."
Get your facts straight first. Most all well pumps can pump way more than 1gpm. In fact a typical outside faucet for a garden hose probably delivers up to 5 gpm even in a house using a well.
Most wells contain a large amount of water. Certainly if the well capacity was too low for a sprinkler system then part of the sprinkler system would include an appropriately sized storage tank or maybe even a fire pond.
For some 20 years my street was protected by only a fire pond which also served as a place for horses to drink and for kids to skate on in the winter. Our fire pond protected street was just so unsafe that in fact my next door neighbor was a qualified officer in the local fire department too.
Clearly, he didn't know what he was doing because no qualified fire officer would have anything to do with a lack of water mains, at least in don't spare the cash and let's hike taxes Cheshire.
As more and more American homes go under water in the coming months tax hikes for stuff like optional water mains will only serve to further hurt struggling Americans trying to keep ahead of declining real estate.
Like I said before, you are putting a price on a human life. That is not any human you are putting at risk, that includes your spouse, parents, kids, grandkids, etc... Before you respond to this, tell each member of your family that they are worth less than $150,000. That is the amount that was requested. That is less than $3.00 per resident.
Just out of curiousity, what items in the town budget do you approve? I just want to get an idea of what kind of person I am dealing with.
Almost forgot, Cheshire has a few ponds that are suppose to be for fire protection, but are not feasable to use. They have wrong connections, too little water, and/or too far from the road to get a truck to.
Sprinkler systems need 150gpm to be feasable. Well pumps are 1-1.5gmp pumps and fill an expansion tank in the basement of your home to boost the pressure. Ask Jimmy Sima about it.
"Before you respond to this, tell each member of your family that they are worth less than $150,000. That is the amount that was requested. That is less than $3.00 per resident. "
It would appear that 150k divided about 28,000 ways is a whole lot more than $3 each. Water is a somewhat finite resource. Give people with wells city water and next you will begin to see their lawns being watered every morning even in the rain by automatic sprinkler systems. This will only drive up current water rates for everyone as the out of state company that owns the water business raises our rates.
Americans at least until now have been free to make important life choices as they see fit. It would make little sense to tell anyone, a family member included, that based on faulty math they were only worth $150k. In fact at least in this town just the fire chief costs residents almost $150k annually.
At the end of the day the town spends many millions just on public safety yearly. Whether spending another $6 per person will provide a future public safety benefit is the real issue. Having once lived in a building which burned to the ground late one night even though it was near a fire station and had hydrants at its entrance it is all too clear that they didn't help one bit either. Sprinklers would have helped but were not installed. And the fire alarms didn't work but some good volunteer fire fighters ran through the complex successfully waking residents.
Buildings sometimes burn. Mostly those in the building get out. Anyone worried about it should have a relatively inexpensive state of the art alarm system, rope ladders for upper story escape and a plan in case there is a fire to get out of the building ASAP.
OBTW, I have never seen a well pump worth buying which didn't have a specified flow rate of at least 10 to 20 gpm. Also never have seen a well supplied house worth living in that didn't provide many gallons of water per minute either.
One of the towns most efficient departments is the fire department. 95% of their budget requests go directly into public safety. We have a top notch group that give thousands of man hours a year to protect our community voluntarily. How can you debate not allowing them to have a basic necessity of their job? We are not talking about giving a 4% raise here, we are talking about providing a reliable, quick, and constant supply of water. Our volunteer group deserves the assistance from the town it is asking for.
Your salary idea of the chief is a little inflated. Per the RJ report, our chief makes $96,000/year. He does not get overtime. Under his leadership, Cheshire has not had any fire related fatalities. (2 notable exceptions). Talking with firefighters from surrounding towns, we have one of the best groups going.
I'm not going to argue well pumps and alterior motives. They don't matter. As far as people watering their lawn, they will pay when the bill arrives.
"Your salary idea of the chief is a little inflated. Per the RJ report, our chief makes $96,000/year."
The chief gets $96k. If it ended there you'd be right. If the chief were solely responsible for all his many benefits 96k would correct.
How about doing the research on what all the chief's benefits cost as well. It would not be surprising to see another 50k if everything including employer paid taxes, pension, and health care and office overhead were included. And in the real world it is included.
" As far as people watering their lawn, they will pay when the bill arrives."
You missed a point. If water consumption goes up and supply remains constant then the cost of water goes up. It isn't just increased for those new customers just being brought on line. The addition of more water mains in town now will also result in everyone paying more for water for ever. So the addition of the water mains for say $150k is just the start then operating costs increase forever too.
My water bill has never gone up due to water mains being added to town. The only fluxiation I have ever seen was a few dollars +/- If yours changed, you have a problem
Why are you against the fire chief too? He doesn't try to give himself needless raises like the police chief, is on call 24/7, organizes town emergency prepareness services, has kept our town well prepared for most if not all emergencies, is accessable to all town residents, and well reviewed by most chiefs in the state.
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