PZC public hearing ends
Both sides were out in force tonight. Here's an image of the buttons that were available as you entered the standing-room-only Council chambers... packed so much in fact that I just left, since it was easier to watch on TV.
The WRA ran this story on the "YES" and the "NO" sides (by Lauresha Xhihani) in today's paper. (Btw, I give an "A" for effort for whoever spent the time to make the "NO" buttons.)
As for my view, as you probably all know, I voted in favor of sending this to the PZC. And since I want history to be accurately represented, I also feel I should remind people of this letter that I authored (and the Herald printed) on September 8, 2005 (click to enlarge image and read letter):
So, as "Bob" wrote in another post, do I think this proposal is a "great idea?" No, because as Tom Ruocco said tonight, there's no proposal yet. However, I am comfortable with the process continuing to move forward. And by that, I mean the PZC now begins to ask questions. And as I've said all along, I trust their collective judgement.
Anyone happen to know when the first PZC meeting is scheduled to be held? If it was mentioned tonight, I didn't catch it.
Tim White
So, as "Bob" wrote in another post, do I think this proposal is a "great idea?" No, because as Tom Ruocco said tonight, there's no proposal yet. However, I am comfortable with the process continuing to move forward. And by that, I mean the PZC now begins to ask questions. And as I've said all along, I trust their collective judgement.Anyone happen to know when the first PZC meeting is scheduled to be held? If it was mentioned tonight, I didn't catch it.
Tim White
Town Council, 4th District
UPDATE: Here's Tuesday's WRA article on last night's PZC meeting, (by Lauresha Xhihani).
119 comments:
The zoning subcommittee will discuss this 5/21.
It ends thank ------------. There were many of the same (YES) people talking about all the nice stores etc. I felt like I live in the wilderness.I have no place to buy anything. How do they sell houses? I would like to be a fly on the wall when they are talking to prospective buyers. Will they not be able to sell a house in Cheshire until the stores are built? The (NO) people had some good points that were relevant. Much talk by Fazzone and the developer. They got their monies worth. I felt sorry for the P&Z members. The chairwomen has done a great job. Yes, it's all in the hands of the P&Z. This will not be resolved for a long time I'm afraid.
Matt Hall came forward early in the public comment phase and was typical Matt, friendly, engaging, crowd pleasing. Then out of the blue he made some comment about some people calling supporters of the proposals whores, etc. I was lost by that left turn. Maybe those comments were made at a council meeting...who knows.
I just thought that was a little strange that he thought he had to councel planning commissioners on rational vs. irrational public comment.
1:07 I specifically recall one meeting in which a resident suggested that a public official in another town got paid by W/S (for participating in their movie).
I don't recall the specific words spoken, but they were unfortunate. I don't know what the speaker intended to imply, but I certainly inferred the worst.
Anyway, I agreed with Matt about what he said. It's disappointing to me whenever a debate stops being respectful and becomes inflammatory.
Naugatuck's lifestyle center called Renaissance Place passes at referendum 4071-2772
I was offended by the Matt Hall comment. He represents the town and a lawyer. He was not in a court room. I attended or watched all the metings regarding this proposal and even the one that wasn't and never heard that remark. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If this was said on the street well it's a free country. I think W/S is a big boy and should be able to defend himself. A letter from the official will have sufficed.
The no button looks like it was made by a child in a 2nd grade crafts class
That's great for Naugy. It's in the center of town and almost 7000 people voted. More than we get at our local elections.
Anon 8:33 Do you have something against 2nd graders? Wait two years and you will be able to do your own. For now, put your head down and take a nap.
Many people, including elected officals, have said anyone that supports this project is a whore. The against people have said very negative things about everyone that was for it(on the take, whores, etc). I am sure that the for people it will never forget.
I thought it was interesting when a P&Z member asked what type of housing are they looking at. (All the residents who said they wanted residential forsee a nice condo complex). The developer said two to three story apartment complexes - WHAT A BUBBLE BURSTER! If the residential portion of this is passed our P&Z needs to be voted out fast.
There have been many negative comments regarding those opposed as well.
We heard one after another step up and give their full support to the proposed development - even though there IS no proposed development. It just goes to show you that people do not understand the nature of the question.
anon 9:11 Who cares. People can say what they want. The last time I looked it's still a free country. Let them sue if they feel slandered. What are these so called "for" people going to do, run people out of town? Get real. Where are you getting your info from?
Where was our town planner the last two meetings? Just a question.
If only lobbying were not part of politics, the world would be a better place. We need more honesty. A wish.
The town planner is dealing with an illness in his family. The town is in capable hands. You can be sure he won't miss a thing. It's taped, its recorded, and he is in his office every day.
People who ride south on RT 10. Just after the Quinnipiac river on the right there is a complex going up. This might be what the northend residential might look like. Tall and compact. Cheaper to build?
Anon 10:11 Thank you for info. Sorry to hear that and my prayers go out to him and his family.
Matt Halls' comments were inappropriate. I have been to all the town meetings on this issue and have NEVER heard those comments. If this was something he was made aware of in private then that is the way it should have stayed - private. To make an issue of those comments at a public meeting where they were never made was wrong.
The YES people were out in force but as usual did not disclose their economic self-interest. Former Town Manager got up and spoke in praise of the development ....after describing his credentials as a "commercial real estate agent"....but couldn't quite get the words "I work for Doug Calcagni who is one of the owners of the property and stands to make several million bucks on the deal"..out of his mouth.
If you look at the people who spoke FOR this project over the last three hearings and connected the dots back to the Calcagni-Bowman Empire....you would see that there is little rank and file support for this zone change among just "plain folks"....the average citizen.
Its all about the money. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Anyone can see that the anti crowd had a bad night last night. There were very few who spoke against and very few no people at the meeting. WS scored points by documenting their case whereas the anti crowd had the same people who show up at the same meetings who say the same things that no one wants to hear and no one respects. So, its on to good shoppes and resturants and movies and the CAVE men can stay home and watch the trees grow and the grass sing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
W/S Gave the P&Z a large document re Canton. Please go to "cantoncares.org". Go to latest updates an scroll down to "SHOPPES DEVELOPER ASKS AGAIN". Way down since this was 2004. You will get the whole story not just one side as was presented last night. I hope P&Z people read both. It was voted down 6-1 and then passed 6-1. Find out why.
they make money selling their property to a retailer or they make money selling their property to a warehouser.
they own the property and will make money.
if they can’t develop it, maybe they’ll sell the trees to International Paper and the aqueduct fill to Tilcon and ten feet of top soil to Scotts.
I don’t like development, but they own it. And this is America… not the Soviet Union. Move to China if you want state control of land!
or buy it yourself.
Anon 10:57 What did your people say? They want it. They say that all the time. Nothing new. They don't even know what the meeting is all about.
Anon 11:02 They will not sell it to me or anybody else. They will make huge anmounts of money with the change. Why can't they develop under our present laws like everyone else in town must? One young and new resident said last night "He had to follow the zoning Laws to build his house". They purchased the land knowing full well what is was zoned for. We have laws.
This is the last attempt by the Dave Schrumm gang to take back control of the town. It won't and can't work-it is very the last act from a sad group that thinks that being anti about everything will win support. It won't but they still don't get it. They are standing by principles that don't ring a bell with anyone.
"maybe they’ll sell the trees to International Paper and the aqueduct fill to Tilcon and ten feet of top soil to Scotts"
"Why can't they develop under our present laws like everyone else in town must?"
they might never develp it. Are there zoning laws that stop them from clear cutting the trees and selling the fill?
When I pulled up the picture of the buttons it looks like someone took a magic marker and colored in the 'No" button the night before. I wonder how long it took them to do that? The green button looks like it was done with much greater care. Maybe this is a signal-if you want something done right do it like you mean it-not off the cuff and crude in style.
It looks like someone took a bottle cap and some crayons and went over to scooter school and said to the kids 'just write no' and they all learned their letters that way, then they got a good talking to about how the bad meanies want to develop the north end and then they got ice cream.
Choo Choo the WS train is rolling down the tracks
Honk Honk-here they come
Clang Clang-move over older timers
Bing Bing-the north end is rolling down the tracks
Big shopping
Big movies
Big Book STore
Big Grocer
Big Big big
and you can stand there and watch it happen
cuz the master blaster has said it is so
Attack the buttons. No they didn't cost $7000. Who paid for the "yes" buttons? What did your leader Justin say last night? I was on the P&Z, TC. and I wanted this. Is that reason to change the text?
There goes the dialogue down the drain.
anon 11:19 What a sad world you live in. Is this about taking over a town? It's only about text change. Also sad is that you don't even understand that it's going to end up in the courts for a long time. That is sad.
There are competing visions for this community not determinations of good and evil. It isn't an issue where caves or the light of day are in dispute.
What is best for the town has become an issue that warrants this serious public dialogue. Stop with the victory parades. It's petty and mistaken. This project has a long ways to go and may never happen.
Tim, the ecke cop said the town did an impmact study on kids in the schools. Are those numbers real?
So Ruocco says there is no project bc there is no application. But the antis already know it will be bad and they can see in the big ball. Which one is it. At least the antis could wait and see what the project looks like before they say it is bad. Can't have it both ways.
PAVE CHESHIRE OVER
------------------
The "Pave Cheshire Over Group" was out in force. Calcagni ordered out their troop of realtors fro a strong show of support for his development. Justin Adinolfi was his usual self, flitting around the room making sure the "Pavers" had their "YES" buttons properly displayed and encouraging them to speak. It's amazing how community minded the Calcagni realtors can be when their boss gives them marching orders to support his and Bowman's land development.
The W/S people continued with their fairy tale of how wonderful everything would be and all the terrific things they were going to do to Cheshire. In explaining why W/S needed stores over 50,000 sq ft Smooth Lou basically said that if they limit the size, it could discourage retailers of larger stores from coming to this wonderful place and as a result Cheshire would be the loser of these highly desirable stores. Was he referring to such desirables as Lowes, Walmart, Target and the like. These big box stores are prominent in or near many W/S malls.
Ed O'Neill, the community minded past town manager and now a commercial real-estate sales person, showed up for full support of the project and became indignant when the chair said his time was up. Evidently he thinks he still had special privileges. It’s the normal progression from town manager to realtor.
Michael Pelletier, Economic Development Commissioner, wanted to make certain that the commission remembered that the Economic Development Commission strongly favored the retail/housing development by reading the letter they sent to P&Z. He could have shared some insight as to how they arrived at their decision with only input from the developer, without public input and without independent study, not Milone and Broom, to identify all the pluses and minuses. There was study money for the pool, why not for something this huge?
John Milone, engineer for W/S and frequently used by the town, in true employee form, minimized all impacts posed by the mall/housing project as no worse than a light industrial use. Really???????????? Let’s have an unbiased impact study before any P&Z votes is taken and let’s not accept John’s biased impact statements.
An Ecke spoke about a study he personally made about the actual number of children in existing condo complexes. Wasn't it nice of him to provide these figures. I'm sure he did it for the love of his town. From his numbers, it appears to be a drive by study during school hours. Let's get a real analysis of how many children a brand new complex, built in an upscale community that has a highly rated school system, would draw. Let's get a realistic idea of how many more classrooms, teachers and how much redistricting will have to be done.
In surprise appearance, Matt Hall trying to appear impartial, instructed the commission members to be thoughtful and admonished someone, nobody knows who, not to call supporters whores.
After the meeting, Matt Bowman gleefully displayed a handful of opposition flyers that he proudly proclaimed that he personally tore down. That a go Matt, stifle all opposing views. Didn't that support the democratic process. It’s not good for the people of Cheshire to hear the truth, they like the fairy tale.
The New Haven register, as part of their coverage of the meeting, today named Paul Bowman and Doug Calcagni as the property owners. Are there any more? If this is so good for Cheshire, why haven’t they publicly come out to take all the credit for everything they are doing to Cheshire? Why did they attempt to hide under the cloak of an LLC. As residents, we should know all the people who want to help Cheshire with this project. For all the se owners are doing for Cheshire, it’s hard to understand why they are seeking taxpayer money to fix the tunnel on their private property? It would be helpful for all the owners of the 400 acres to identify themselves and tell us how they want to help Cheshire. Maybe it would help P&Z in their decision making to get ideas from these owners.
The opposition continued their warning that all was not peaches and cream. For some reason, they appear to be against big box stores, national fast food chains and the conversion of the northend’s 400 acres or more into an extension of Southington’s Queen street. What’s wrong with these people, don’t they like to shop? All that’s on the land are trees, some wildlife and a brook. It’s not like it’s really in Cheshire. It’s in the northend where nobody lives. Who cares it’s not in my backyard.
Thanks to Tim White we have a means of expressing our views and one that promoters can't tear down.
the head count has been done way before with the school system- most of the condo complexes have very few children per complex. This flies in the face of the anti claims that we will have to build new schools. This is just a big fib and for someone on the board of education to make this claim means he needs to look at the facts before he speaks
I thought that the contribution of Matt Hall was measured and very enlightened. At least he put a dagger in the heart of the anits who have not been against the project but they are against the PEOPLE who are in support of the project. That is all. It is personal and they will be against anything if they feel they are losing control of Cheshire-which they are.
This zone change is the best thing for lawyers. Between the interchange properties and all the other property zones in Cheshire, there will be plenty of court work for the lawyers. Fazzone will probably have to add staff, think about his costs.
It should also be a merry time for the P&Z if they open Pandora's Box. Maybe this will become a full-time position.
1:11PM Matt Hall only made himself look foolish. If you can't come up with something concrete don't open your mouth. Noone at any meeting said any of those things. Also for those talking about children in condos, the developer said last night he wants 3 story apartments. Has anyone done a study as to rental apartments and children - I think not.
Back in the early 90's I came home from high school and told my mother that there was a kid at school with a fat wallet and several hundred dollar bills. I told her it was Xxxxx Bowman.
She told me, "that's because the Bowman's, and a few others, own the town."
Maybe our local oligarchs will find it in their heart to shelve this development, eat the costs of the property, and just establish some nice hiking trails. If they still need more lunch money for their kids they could charge for parking. Eh?
As I recall, most people don't get to revise the town's charter as it suits them. Let's all play by the same rules. An aristocracy of influence, old friends, and cash has no place in an elected body.
who you kidding.
It's the school system. You can charge a premium by selling our scholl system. Lot's of people would like to move into nice new apartments, no closing costs and get their kids into one of the best school systems.
But, is it the great place to raise kids, next to a mall. What kind of problems does that bring to the schools.
I noticed that Mr. Ecke did not include Currier Woods in his "student head count". Many more kids than 5-6 in that complex. How convenient of him.
For all those people who think the ampitheater will be a great assest to the town where one can go and listen to the community band, how come the summer concerts in Cheshire Park (at our current natural ampitheater) are so poorly attended (I go to almost all and crowds are sparse) and how come the Memorial Day concert had to be cancelled for lack of interest? Where were you then?
Why do some people think Shrumm is behind all the opposition.? Maybe some people get mad at him because he is the only one with the cajones to speak the truth to power. If everyone wants to live in a world where only money talks and political clout wins over the will of the people perhaps you can take your summer vacation in Cuba or perhaps in Chevez' workers' paradise
While watching the proceeding from afar last night I was blown away by J Fazzone's passionate plea to change the zone "because nothing has happened". His brother the "Developers' Mouthpiece" has often suggested the same thing.
Check the record, folks. You will find that the Fazzone family partnership has been receiving monthly payments for YEARS to keep their SE corner (60 acres+/-) of the interchange zone OFF the market so NO ONE could develop it.
Nothing happening? Its because these guys were being paid TO KEEP anything from happening. The payor was the gas company who wanted to preserve this site for their gas pumping station. It looks like they will get their final approval in the next month and start building. By the way...check the records....they finally closed on the 60 acres last Fall...$4.7million.....after paying for years to keep it off the market.
Nothing happening? Its happening...in the electronic banking deposits to the land owners.....we little people just can't see it.
I have no problem with people selling their land. Just don't be raging hypocrites and stand there for the last several years telling people that "nothing is happening" when you are getting rish KEEPING things from happening.
How do you spell chutzpah?
Wow, is anyone allowed to make money, you must be a Dem. because R's are for free markets and for people getting ahead, you are clearly against it. Are you a Dem, who hates free markets, or an R long left behind and bitter about it?
Mr. Schrumm lost his "cajones" when he back-stabbed Sandy Morris and destroyed the republican party in Cheshire. Hate the Dems, thank David Schrumm.
Get your facts straight mister capitalist. The Dem leadership is pushing this no matter if it is Dumb development and that it will ruin Cheshire's reputation for being a good place to live. Nobody is against someone making money the old fashion way, honestly and above board. When they hide behind LLC and work in the dark, at the cost to the rest of the town, that's when people don't like it. You are probably going to profit on this deal too. Get a life and do something good except complain.
"Wow, is anyone allowed to make money"
Why do the Bowmans have to make money from taxpayers? Pay for your own repairs.
Let's end welfare for the rich.
Matt Hall's comments were totally inappropriate. Public comments were supposed to be whether you were for or against the zone text change. It wasn't the time to talk about who's calling who anything. (btw, I didn't hear any name calling that he referred to at any meeting either.)
And Ecke's comments regarding the number of kids at a few of our condo complexes were totally inaccurate also. As one person already said, he forgot about one of the complexes. Besides, who made him an expert poll taker? I wouldn't put too much stock into anything he says anyway. He can't be positive about the exact type of housing that goes in that 110 acre area not to mention what might go in the other 300 acres if the zone text changes are approved by P & Z. Remember there is no proposal in front of the P & Z, just the zone text changes.
Save some of those "yes" people's editorials because if the zone text changes go through these "yes" people will likely become "no" people when Lowes, Target, etc try developing in the other 300 acres or more housing goes in. Little do they realize.
The chairwoman (who has done a great job) should have reminded people that when they spoke the text change was they only item that was open for discussion. Many people spoke volumes about shopping etc. which was not relevant. In the future (a suggestion only) the developer pays a fee and should be heard but sometime can the citizens go first? It takes a few hours before we can talk.
Matt Halls comments set the wrong tone for the open discussion. Many people are often nervous about speaking in public. This might have prevented many people to speak especially those who had question or opposed the propose text change. Bad move. Apology is in order.
Many, if not all of us, knew the hearing was about a change to zoning and the Plan of Conservation. But we also had to counter the fancy brochure and the supporters half-thoughtout ideas. That's why all the talk about shopping etc. Hall was definitely off-base with his opening comments. Most people had no idea about what he was talking about. He was his typical bloviating self.
Matt Hall needs to apoligize for his inappropriate remarks.
I think WS Development is nothing more than a front man for residential. Residential is where the real money is going to be made. This is being pushed hard by all the realtors in town. If you took all the realtors out of the room at the P&Z meetings, the for people were relatively slim. Watch the owners of the remaining 300 acres apply for applications for more residential development. The P&Z should see that in the Cheshire Herald poll 60% of respondents did not want residential in that area.
Anon 5/9 3AM It was late so some allowance can be made for your staement...however:
It is impossible to avoid a discussion about shopping when the text change allows retail. It is also impossible to avoid questions about residential and its implication when the text change includes this. A public hearing is not called to check for spelling errors or to make corrections to grammer. Your expert anaylis is somewhat ridiculous especially when the applicant has made no secrets with their intent either at the meetings or in other statements, presentations and mailed inserts.
An apology is required of no one. The process has worked thus far, as it is intended for the benefit of both the applicant and the general public.
9:35AM I have to disagree - an apology is in order. It is inappropriate for a town official to get up and speak referring to things that were never said at any of the meetings. It gave the meeting a bad start and it was unnecessary. And referring to W----s was distasteful.
Matt Hall should offer an apology to the village idiots? Come on you must be kidding? We have councilmen that will lie, cheat and steal to keep this from happening. The anti people have supports all kinds of names including the one that he said. I assume that he was trying to bring civility to this process and give examples of what was going on. He did not speak for or against; he was worried about the damage that the debate was doing to the community.
10:22
I am in full agreement with you regarding Matt's left field comment in poor taste comment but nonetheless he owns those statements and is getting the heat warranted.
It may be unwise to make a bad comment but everyone has a right to speak for and against. That is in the rule book. The bar rises when the public hearing is closed and PZC begins to deliberate on the facts and the changes proposed within the existing zoning structure. The commission will deliberate and make a decision that will generate contraversy no matter how it goes. Its doubtful it will be unanimous but thats only speculation. Good luck to all of them.
10:22AM Matt Hall is the Chairman of the Town Council and should be above petty references. If that was his way of bringing civility to the meeting he definitely missed the mark - badly. As far as people against this cheating and stealing who are the ones throwing around insinuations now!!!!
Matt Hall did a great job-there are antis out there who are not satisfied with just saying no-they have to make make everyone who supports the project seem like they are going to "pave over Cheshire" or that they "sold out" or that they don't have the best interest of the town in mind. Could it be just a difference in approach rather than an evil movement. If you don't like the project say so. If you do say so. If you like say so. But if you think you have cornered the market of the best interests of Cheshire step back.
11:41AM Your reading this blog too much. All the anti-pro name calling is only on this blog. At no meeting have I heard this type of language. All the anti people (and their not really anti only concerned) have brought out intelligent comments. No one has been name calling or making poor comments on either side. So my suggestion would have been get off the computer and come to a meeting and see how people really state their opinions - WITH THEIR NAMES AND ADDRESSES!!! That is the reason I too feel Matt Hall was off base because nothing he mentioned was said at any public meeting.
No I'm sorry but there was that type of name calling at several meetings and in the cheshire Herald. But that is the way it goes-too much polarization and not enough agreeement on what is common between us
12:13PM You and I attended different meetings because I never heard any such remarks. I am a Cheshire Herald subscriber and have never seen any name calling in any of their articles either. Matt Hall was wrong - period!
Matt Hall specifically said "Whores" where at any meeting or article have you seen or heard that reference.
"Wow, is anyone allowed to make money"
Sure they are and these good old boys have made it. They already sold 60 arces of the zone that was contiguous to the 109. That's where 90 units Riverside Condos were built by Brodach and marketed by Calcagni. Take a look at this crammed in development that is call Luxury. So take, the net amount from the 60 acres off their cost.
I have land that I have held for over 40 years and it is still covered with trees. I haven't sold it because I didn't want to. Got the point, no body can buy it if I don't want to sell it. Now if I wanted to sell it, I could do it in a week. So, if you don't know all the story, don't complain that it has not been developed. If they had wanted to sell it, they could have got a realtor that specializes in industrial. When you get another realtor, you sign a contract and that shows you really want to sell it.
Don't cry you heart out for these two or more. If zone change is not made, they won't make a killing, but they will do very well. And if P&Z turns it down, they in their community spirit will take the town to court just like Paul Bowman did last time.
Stop whining for them, let them do their own.
Tell them to stop taking taxpayer money for the businesses.
"This project has a long ways to go and may never happen"
STEP 1 ACT ON THE ZONE CHANGE REQUEST
The problem right now is not the project. It's the zone change. If the zone change is made to allow retail and residential for all 400 acres period, it can't be reversed.
Step 2:
If passed, then this project and others can be considered by P&Z and impact study are done. Why no Impact study before the Zone change. How can a zone change be done without the information of an impact study on 400 acres.
Step 3: APPROVAL AND PAVING
Approval of a project and PAVING can start.
Step 4: HINDSIGHT
What the hell did they do and why? Whose big idea was it? Wow, who made all the money?
How long did it take you to get that bitter?
Matt Hall's comments were out of order. Public comment was only to be whether you were for or against the zone text changes. The P & Z chair should have cut him off and reminded him of that. Although he should know as when he asks for public input at a TC meeting he specifically asks, before a topic is open to other councilors for discussion, if the public has any comments on that topic. The boe does the same - the public can comment only on the topic they are currently discussing (unless it's the later part of their agenda "audience comments".) So much for bylaws or Robert's Rules.
The anti group only wishes that they had someone of his respect in town to talk about the project. Cry all you want.
The group with concerns regarding this proposal has many respected individuals. What is great about our democratic process is that everyone has the right to speak their mind and ask questions. The problem as I see it is if your someone who wants answers your automatically labeled anti-something.
The "PAVE CHESHIRE OVER GROUP" is not interested in logical debate. They like to work in the dark, behind the scenes and are not interested in SMART GROWTH for the town of Cheshire. They are lead by the people that stand to make the millions.
The Cheshire Herald continued showing their support of W/S. As is normal, they don't report what really happens. It was painfully obvious that the Calcagni group mustered their employees for a big show of support for this project. It's a great project for the owners, developers and realtors. The Herald quoted Sandy Kovach as saying the northend has a shabby appearance and isn't the kind of landscape that serves as the gateway to Cheshire. A strip mall is a good appearance? Will it make Cheshire look like a good place to live? Go to Canton, all you see from rt 44 is the back of a strip mall. Maybe the good folks that own to property would like to take credit for the shabby appearance.
Maybe the Herald might consider unbiased reporting.
Someone should tell the reporter and editor of the Cheshire Herald that they should "report" the story not "write" their own story.
We need another paper in town to report the truth.
Where does the Cheshire Herald say they are for the development in this weeks article? You mention the quote from Sandy Kovach. What about the quote from K. Jacavone opposing the mall? Read her quote about what happened in S Windsor, it's in the story. It's also mentioned that there were letters from organizations expressing their concerns regarding the river.
And be realistic, how is the reporter at a meeting supposed to know how many in the audience are real estate agents?
Also, even if there were real estate people at the meeting, if they are Cheshire residents, they have every right to voice their opinions.(It's America, remember.) And bravo to them for speaking up. The nay sayers have the same rights.
I am on the fence regarding this project and I didn't attend the meeting. I read the story in the paper. A lot of people showed up for it. MOre supporters spoke in favor of the plan at this meeting than previous meetings. Opponets of the plan sent out flyers for people to attend the meeting. So those in favor did the same thing, got their supporters to attend.
Fazzone got up and spoke as he was paid to do by his client. Now it's up to the PZC to take the next step.
Like it or not, the paper reported what happened, they didn't give an opinion. I do not see where they showed any support of the project.
The only thing I see biased is your post. OK, you don't want the shopping center, but don't make things up to try to prove your point.
How does reporting what Ms. Kovach said show bias? She got up and spoke didn't she? She's entitled to her opinion.The paper didn't say that the northend has a shabby appeareance they reported what she said.
How come you don't think the paper is against the plan because they also reported that Katherine Jacavone said that where she once lived they did the same type of plan as WS is planning for Cheshire, and it was a mistake?
I was at the meeting, there was nothing untruthful in the CH article this week. And personally, I don't want to see a so called lifestyle center up there.
No one said the Cheshire Herald said they were for the mall in this weeks article. In a past editorial they came out for it and in last week's article Hutchinson pumped up the retoric by her story title "Officials worry that misinformation could cloud development issue", by quoting Fazzone that the opposition flyer had statements that were absolutely false. All flyer statements were correct and it was Fazzone that was absolutely wrong and misleading. The Herald never retracked their story and gave the impression that the opposition was trying to misinform the public.
As for this weeks meeting, it was obvious to anyone that attended, that realtors were told to attend. You do what your boss wishes.
In this week's story she quotes 3 people for it and no oppositions. Read Jacovone's comment again. She said her town, South Windsor, rejected a devloper's request to build part of the Buckland Hills mall in that town. "They realized they made a mistake and the revenue is now going to Manchester. Sure sounds like she was warning that if Cheshire didn't approve, the revenue would go someplace else.
You said the CH "continued" showing their support of W/S group. You're really being petty. It mentions that the Quinnipiac Watershed Assoc. has their doubts about the plan. It quotes Mary Mushinsky's concerns regarding development of the parcel.
The Chamber of Commerce is mentioned as submitting a comment. The article didn't say what their opinion is, (we know it's for the plan.)Maybe the CH is not in favor of the plan, they quoted the Quinnipiac Watershed letter, but not the Chamber?
Who cares if the real estate agents packed the meeting. They pay taxes too. Couldn't many of them just want the mall? Does their always have to be an ulterior motive?
Jacavone made a good point. The developer isn't going to sit around forever. They'll try their best and what will be, will be.
If they decide to go somewhere else,
the homeowners of Cheshire will continue to pay higher and higher taxes for the privledge of living here.
People have to be realistic, what industry is going to move into Connecticut, look around, everyone else is heading south...for what lower taxes and incentives for businesses.
BTW why was the town so willing to open their arms for John Erichetti and his Apple Valley Mall years ago? Extension after extension after extension was granted. It was good enough then for retail, how come not now?
Does anyone look at the back page of the Herald every week? Go look and you will find some answers to your questions. It is a free country but I think the article in The Meriden paper was well written and fair to both groups( 2 for and 2 against). It was a different writer than the one who normally covers Cheshire.. Maybe that was why it was balanced.
After viewing the meeting on TV, I thought a comment by a young new Cheshire resident about his having to conform to present P&Z laws to build his home was on the mark. This was not reported at all. I think all the news outlets missed it.
Anon 10:19 The northend has been active. I don't have time to mention all the tax breaks we are given out. A few just recently. They came here and FIP only has one more parcel left. Check it out. People are saying nothing has happened in 20 years. BS.
As far as the "Apple Mall" you hit the nail on head. It was delayed. I don't know exactly why but I know this will follow the same route. COURTS. COURTS COURTS. That's the reality today.
The one thing that no one is bringing out is the statement by the developer at the end of the meeting. He was asked what type of residential would be built. I don't know about anyone else but I've noticed how this has changed since the first pictures showed up of this development. First it was condos, then condos with garden apartments, and now its 2 to 3 story apartment buildings. Does anyone really trust this developer and what will be built. I for one can think of nothing worse then what he is describing. We've had apartment complexes in Cheshire and they were ultimately turned into condos (Oak Ave & Woodridge come to mind) I wonder why? I think this text change should not allow residential.
10:36 Annon.The backpage of the Cheshire Herald doesn't answer any questions. I see a long time resident of Cheshire, who happens to own a real estate business advertising his business, just like the other businesses. What's the big deal? I also see the same ad in the Meriden paper each Sunday.
Are people jealous of success? I don't know any of the owners of Calcagni personally, but I do know they are successful and they have donated to just about every non-profit organization in this town.
Calcagni does donate.
Soon you'll see speed barriers of some sort at all of the intersections of town roads and the linear trail.
He (or his firm) donated (I think) $1250 a few months ago... the idea is to buy and install something or other to slow down traffic at linear trail crossings.
we voted on it via the consent calendar. So probably no one even noticed it.
Thanks Tim for mentioning that. People like to accuse and throw mud around.
I'll bet many of these same people have benefited one way or another from all the contributions Calcagni has made.
They have donated to many different causes I have represented ...and unlike most in town, never toot their own horn when giving.
10:36 says sorry. I did say it was a FREE country.
On another P&Z matter. The sports complex is back. Yes it was in the Cheshire Herald. The poor P&Z people. They have a full plate.
I for one is leaving it up to the P&Z to make the proper LEGAL decision regarding this request. We have one of the best lawyers advising the P&Z members (2 are lawyers) if they have questions or need clarification. Our town planners have the experience. This is a very complex and multi-step request with far reaching implications both good and bad. I'm sure that all will keep the safety and welfare of the CHESHIRE CITIZENS in mind when deliberating.
Tim:
The only logical action for the P&Z to make without an impact study that includes the entire 400 acres is to reject the zone change. How can they make a decision without information?
After the rejection, the impact study should be made and it should include input for all land owners and be completely free from any bias or self interest.
We could hire a consultant for the pool, why not an impact study.
To insure no conflict of interest, the impact studies should not be done by any town resident. Both promoters and opposition groups have said the decision has already been made, the only thing that will dispel these accusations is a real study which people can believe.
There will be an impact study of an actual proposal, since P&Z could change the entire scope of the project how could a study be done now?
Any impact study on the proposal is too late. It has to be done prior to a zone change, that is what is before the P&Z now.
A zone change should not be done prior to thorough impact studies. That's what Watertown asked for and the developer pulled out.
Let's have a decision made on real information. The Cheshire residents should have nothing less.
But there is not a proposal before the commission so how do you do it?
If this was required then Cheshire could ask for one like Watertown did. Do we require one? Good question for the the legal people.
I agree it will be part of any application, that is when it should be done.
12:19
Anyone who thinks there is no proposal before PZC is either a lawyer or has to be deaf & blind. The zone text change envisions, enables a shopping center of scale, speaks to its quality of tenancy, envisions its need to make infrastructure improvements, nestles it with a housing componant, etc.
You are technically correct, the fine tuning is not done at this step nor has the developer pursued detailed plans but a significant amount of marketing in brochures, websites, town council presentation and in the PH process before PZC they have clearly demonstrated their (developers) hoped for result.
Please reject the notion that the zone text change is okay because PZC will say no eventually when a plan come before them because the prescription for that plan will have its foundation in the zone text change and the commission will have very little in the regs to say no to.
Is this not written so P&Z can reject any application at anytime for any reason? They can say that they don't like the applicant's shoes and say no. That is the way that this is proposed.
The developer has indicated what they want to do. Before the zone change is done, the P&Z must do and impact study based on what the developer has been telling everyone in town what they intent to do. Then multiply that by 4 to get the impact of all 400 acres. Get real costs to the town, not the developers low ball general statements.
Boy am I glad I moved out of Cheshire....HA HA HA Here comes Queen Street........HA HA HA...Or Maybe Dixwell Ave...HA HA HA...How about Chapel street in new haven
HA HA HA
We are very glad that you are gone.
3:20
If someone wants to build a new retail business in an established comercial zone that permits retail then the zoning authority can only say no if they want to sell sex toys or if their parking plan doesn't conform to the regulations or it is more than 50,000 ft. etc.
If the PZC says the town has enough stores and simply doesn't want to approve any more they will have violated the existing laws and will lose an appeal in the state courts when that decision is appealed. There are rules to be followed to protect the interests of public and the property owners. Saying no for the hell of it won't work out.
If town leaders decided it wanted to prevent more retail or more funeral homes, etc. it would have to make a zone text change, hold a public hearing which would be widely attended by landowners of commercial property and people for and against. There would be the appropriate level of hysteria on all sides and the zone text change would be put to a vote by the PZC.
This is a different scenario as the town is proposing the change in this example but it is essentially the same process being followed by WS.
Are you people more concerned about the actual development in Cheshire or more concerned about who owns the land and if they are making a profit? I sense a lot of jealousy.
And what if they aren't stores like the Walmarts out there, what if they are "Shoppes" filled withl William-Sonoma, Potterybarn, and finer clothing boutiques for seniors, adults, and the children of this community. There is much greater potential in a town like this for stores of higher quality. That is if only you are willing to put a little into it. If not maybe you will end up with Queen Street...you always get what you deserve.
"Are you people more concerned about the actual development in Cheshire or more concerned about who owns the land and if they are making a profit? I sense a lot of jealousy."
How stupid. If Cheshire wanted those upscale stores, they would already be here. They could have built where Huxley's was and other places around the center of town. There's space in the Watch Factory, and the Ball and Socket could be turned into an upscale mini-mall. Why hasn't this happened? It's beacuse Cheshire will not support those stores. Cheshire supports Marshall's a closeout specialist and a consignment store.
Nobody is jealous of people making money as long as they make it the old fashion way, honestly and above board. When you can't even come out and use your own names, it shows your not proud of what you are doing. When you intimidate your employees to go to public meetings to support your money making projects, you really get people ticked.
We have heard enough from the Justins of the world. Go pave your lawn.
Change the zone and pave over 400 acres or even more of Cheshire. Welcome to the Cheshire's Queen Street, Wallingford rt 5 Life Style Format. Big Boxes are coming.
"Anonymous 8:13", why haven't you used or signed your own name on this blog? Be proud of your comments.
When is someone going to wise up and realize it's not retail it's residential that is going to make them millions. When the text change is made they can take the other 300 acres and make it look like the Carabeta Apartments in Waterbury or even worse the three story apartment complexes on Mix Avenue in Hamden. These type of apartments will flood our schools with children. Bottom line it's the residential stupid!!!!
"When is someone going to wise up"
You're right, but it could be worse than you think.
The economy is slowing, retail sales have slowed, the dollar is at the lowest ever so import costs are rising, gas prices are hitting an all-time high, banks have tightened their lending practices, housing sales have hit a new low and retail stocks have been hit hard recently including Whole Foods down 10% in the last few days. These are only a few of the problems. Wake up, the consumer doesn't have as much money.
It's not a good time to be building malls and W/S just might agree and pull out. With the zone change made Bowman and Calcagni might just keep the land and build only residential. Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.... What a joke on Cheshire? Where ya gonna go ta get yer fine food?
This is why this proposal needs much deliberation.
I travel the northend every day. The area is beautiful and visually pleasant for an "Industrial life-style Center". What a great industrial/commercal development FIP built. It looks like a park. The buildings and parking lots are mostly hidden. There are over 25 companies listed on the directory. How can anyone state that the area is stagnant? Have they driven by lately? Give me a break.
Anon 8:01 What about the residential?
Mr Hall did state he hoped it would not offend anyone before he used the "W" word if I heard him right. I guess we need the Janet Jackson rule in the future. 2 or 3 second delay?
If we allow the zone change to include residential this town deserves what it gets. Someone posted how that area isn't appealing. Wait till these apartment buildings go up then tell me how appealing that is. See how our shoppers are going to feel then. They'll be complaining like hell but it will be too late.
Can P&Z place a restriction on residential? So many units per square feet of retail ie. One for every 5,000 or 10,000sq ft or whatever the P&Z recommends. This might insure that the town has some control and breakeven point. Just a thought.
No residential at all!!!!!!!!
10:51PM Are you crazy! Once this is approved with residential we will have no control. Just take into consideration the developer constantly changing what the residential will be. Their going to build whatever makes them the most money with no consideration for the town as a whole. When the developer first approached the P&Z he stated he didn't need residential to make this work. If the P&Z is smart they'll take him at his word .
I drove through town tonight on my way home from work. What a great place....by 6 the traffic was starting to thin out....trees in bloom...beautiful town center....we have a great place here folks. Why are we risking blowing what we have on retail sprawl and more apartments.....more people....more traffic.....more more more ...what?
What for?
If the text change is passed, you can expect one of the following scenarios:
Scenario 1:
W/S will after some time goes by, not much, will say they are having trouble getting some stores that would be very advantageous because of the size limitation and that they need at least nnn,nnn sq ft. and heights of nnn. If P&Z say no, then W/S says they will have to pull out. P&Z know that if they pull out, the local owners can build housing on the entire 109 acres. To avoid the embarrasment of the entire property burdening the town with all that housing the P&Z will agree to that and anything else W/S wants. The result, Big Box stores.
Senario 2
With housing hitting a new low, banks tightening lending practices, realestate values falling, a slowing economy, consumer sales falling, gas hitting an all-time high, the dollar hitting a new low making imports more expensive, and as a result of these factors there is a reluctance of national chain to expand in areas of high competition. So, if W/S has trouble getting lessors, they might well bail out, leaving the current land owner/developers the ability to build rental on the entire 109 acres. And, rental is easier to do since renters only have to put down a security payment. There are many parents in the surrounding towns that would like to get their kids into Cheshire schools.
In either of these scenarios Cheshire will lose. And, remember the text change is for 400 acres and once changed, you can't go back.
Anon 5/14 10:39 Great observation. I agree 100%. We also have a great little area in the WESTEND. We don't need more shopping. Most of those stores will be large chains and not owned by local people. I like to spend my money in CHESHIRE so that local businesses prosper. No to zone change. We will not benefit.
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