Aerial view of proposal
Breaking news... I think I got this before just about anybody else... these are not the drawings that were presented at the January 30 Council meeting. These are, I believe, the "official" proposal. Here's the view from afar (click on the images to enlarge them):
And here's a more detailed view... apologies for the color quality... having some computer difficulties... the handwritten legend and notes are mine... wasn't sure if the actual document would be legible on the blog... not that my handwriting is much better!
My initial reaction...
Quality of life
The developer certainly seems to be trying to do something for the community with the riverwalk and adjacent parking. Btw, do you see where the railbed lies? Probably within a few hundred feet of the riverwalk. As well, a Southington source told me that the Town of Southington is in fact coming south to the Cheshire line with their current $400,000 trail extension. I wonder if anyone is going to push to extend the rail trail into Cheshire and down to this development?
As well, they're including an amphitheater. Presumably, this and the riverwalk would be for use by anyone? If so, those are pluses in my book.
Residential
I'm not sure though that I buy the "mixed use" description. This certainly looks to me as though the residential and retail are divided. As I've mentioned, housing above retail is my thinking... and in my mind, that would solidly be described as "mixed use." This seems fairly segregated to me. Although one could argue that the riverwalk and amphitheater are a mixed use in relation to the housing... and those would clearly be selling points for garnering community support.
Retail
The cinemas might work... if the rumor I heard is true... that the Southington theaters were bought and closed... not because they were financially unsustainable, but because Walmart simply wanted the building.
I also notice what appears to be the single biggest retail outlet in the center... and it's labeled "organic grocer." Putting two and two together... when Whole Foods put their distribution center in the northend of town, there was talk of them adding a grocery store. I wonder if they might be a retailer who would want more than 50,000 sq ft? If they're as crunchy as their reputation suggests (they have a huge photovoltaic system on their roof in Cheshire and they are committed to clean energy nationally), I'm not immediately opposed to them breaking the 50k ft rule... of course, that's keeping in mind the Town Planner's comments that courts do not acknowledge "precedent" in "land use law."
Traffic
They're including traffic lights. And not that two lights would fully alleviate increased congestion, but at $150,000 - 250,000 each... they are at least serious about dealing with traffic.
Kids
I'm not sure what these "units" are supposed to be... they look like condos to me... which is an improvement from the previous map. That just looked like a bunch of 3 or 4 bedroom colonials.
Nonetheless, before PZC approves anything, they should get an impact study from the developer. I believe that study will include an analysis comparing their proposed housing to similar housing in Cheshire (number of bedrooms, square feet type-of-thing). That impact study should give a fair idea on how many kids we could expect if the proposal is approved.
Conclusion
Retail center - I think it could work.
50,000 sq ft rule - Depends on who gets this exception. Considering their history and reputation, Whole Foods would probably be worth a "one-time" exception.
Residential - I'm not sold on this. As I said during the Council meetings, my idea of "mixed use" is residential above retail. (And I was also thinking in terms of stopping the brain drain and getting our young adults a place where they can live on their own. Not sure what the costs of these units would be.) Furthermore, residential is not critical to the viability of the retail center and the developer said that during the Jan 23 meeting.
One thing's for sure though... if this project does continue moving forward, I'm going to strongly encourage the developer to have onsite, renewable power generation. Maybe I'll even suggest they sit down with our Energy Commission. Believe me... as crazy as this may sound... I've watched CT-N hearings on energy... and, generally speaking, our seven members are more qualified than the people working on committees in Hartford. Our group really is an amazing bunch... knowledgable, articulate and succinct. They make "energy" easy.
Tim White
Town Council, 4th District
p.s. I'm virtually certain that nobody else has these aerials. So you may want forward this link to your friends & neighbors. I really would like to get some feedback on this. Finally, P&Z has rescheduled their public hearing from Feb 26 to Mar 12.
51 comments:
the more I hear the more I like
WOW, when can they start and I think I want to live there!!!!
let's get this done
There will be little or no school impact, build it now.
Brickbats, bricks and bats...
If they take away the homes it won't be so...so...homey..
I like to meet new people and make new friends..
We can have coffee at Paneras
I like everything I have seen about this proposal so far...everything
Tim I love you.
Tim you look like you have more friends to your left than to your right. Is that true? It seems like during the meeting that the DEms are joking around with you and really like and respect you and your views. That is good for the council.
Hate to burst your bubble, Tim, but these arial photos have been available for at least 2 weeks, although the second one has the Southington condos addded in. In any case, the trail and the amphitheater are nice but would still prefer NO RESIDENTIAL. Residential is a net loss tax-wise
--always has been.
BTW if the Superintendent wants 7.5 teachers for a student population that is decreasing by 57, even 20-30 more students might increase our bloated payroll by 10 more staff.
(And remember, although the BOE cut the salary budget by $275K, with retirements he could still manage to hire all 7.5 positions even with the $ reduction.)
anon 9:53 THANK YOU! It's obvious you have paid attention to the school budget and are more realistic about the situation.
this is terrible
where will all the kids ride their dirtbikes :)
crunchy?
You are a fool to think that this is anything more than another sprawling SHOPPING CENTER with MASSIVE PARKING LOTS!
Go to the other "Life Style" centers and you will see that they are not like the pretty pictures you see from the developer.
Think...think hard....WHERE is there a SHOPPING CENTER with an outdoor amphitheatre? With "river walks" where kids can ride bikes?
THERE AREN"T ANY.
Cities can have liveable spaces....because they already have the population density and residential actually next to commercial. This project is a "fake town" in the middle of an industrial zone. GET REAL!
As for energy, if Mr. Green Tim were really concerned about wasting energy, why would you support building millions of cubic feet of RETAIL space in BOX stores that have to be heated and cooled? For what?
So people can SHOP~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!! Wow....we need more people buying goods made in China.....we don't have enough of THAT in Cheshire.
And as for the environment.....let's have more large parking areas draining into the TEN MILE RIVER which flows to the QUINNIPIAC RIVER which flows through our AQUIFER PROTECTION AREA.
You claim to be an environmentalist? GET REAL. These sprawling retail complexes are environmental disasters......despite what the developers will do with "mitigation".
Go to www.srweiner.com and look at their "Properties" tag. Then look at the aerial views of Millbury MA, Bellingham MA and some of their other developments....and look at what grows around them......box stores and parking lots and traffic.....
Take a look at Weiner's marketing of their retail space....they ENCOURAGE other box stores (can you say WalMart?) to come to the areas where they have "lifestyle centers".
Take off the rose colored glasses Timmy....go to these places and take a good look. We should resist all attempts to pave over the north end because that's what this change in zoning will result in.
to compare what we will get to other developments does not make any sense. It is gonna happen and you cna count on it, so get used to it
Tim,
If you're the first getting the photo its because you are the biggest sap on the council. Your energy camouflage is just BS. You see taxable income as a panacea instead of the considering the legitimate quality of life questions that come into play here.
As for residential above stores, that may be workable in a rehab project in an established urban downtown like New Haven and Hartford. In a new development the retailer would never want that entanglement. I remember reading that John Ricci was approved for mixed use commercial/residential in his Midstate building but couldn't get commercial tenants that could live with concept so PZC let him change his plan back to commercial only.
This is dangerous for our town and sadly I'm beginning to think "visionaries" like you are dangerous as well.
10:12...
Please visit
www.rmi.org
And consider this, we probably have way more energy in the world than we probably need. The issue isn't really a lack of generation. It's more a lack of ability to harness it.
10:53... "You see taxable income as a panacea instead of the considering the legitimate quality of life questions that come into play here"
Could you expand? I'm curious what you mean?
Anon 10:12,
The only thing that is dangerous to this town are people liek you who want this town to remain in the docile state of the 1950's. People who also believe that we will attract manufacturing and corporate centers to increase our tax revenue base. that just isnt going to happen and living with your head in the sand and expecting that property taxes wont explode without resonable development such as this is ignorant. Ist also ignorant to believe that young er residents with families are goign to put up with Seniors demanding tax freezes while we have no new development. The" my kids already went thru the schools and I shouldnt have to pay mreo tax" defense is crap. Seniors were paying taxes when their kids went to school as well.
Forget it pal, this development is going to happen for the better good of the town.
As for your comments about Tim, he is exactly what this town needs. Open minded leaders with no personal agenda or bias. Its time Mr. Schrumm, oes home. I cant tell you this is one Republican who has had enough of his act...and Mr, Roucco shoudl be a one termer as well.
11:25 Spelling police here. Please proof read. I don't even have enough time to clean up your post.
Repeating the same bs over and and over does not make it true. If the anti devlopment crowd wants to make points they better come up with better arguments than they put up so far
It does not matter because the progressive element will win again
10:12...
"Think...think hard....WHERE is there a SHOPPING CENTER with an outdoor amphitheatre?"
My girlfriend mentioned that she knows of some of these places. More down south, than up north though.
I tried googling it, but am having some computer problems.
Tim,
Seaside, Fl is one of many communities that mixes residential and retail. It also happens to have an amphitheater. If anyone would like to learn more about the benefits of combining residential and retail, google "new urbanism."
We can do it I would love to have it and we can do it
emma... welcome back... haven't seen you here in a while.
thanks for tip on "new urbanism."
For anyone who is interested, I think the a read of this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_urbanism
may be worthwhile
TW
Tim, be careful. Schrumm and Kunde want your head. There spreading these same lies about you around town.
And Schrumm is the same person who I was told said "so?" when he was asked about all the kids dying in Iraq. Schrumm doesn't even care when our kids die. How could he? He's too busy making decisions for the Planning and Zoning Commission.
Well, I am a Republican and I have pretty much had it with Schrumm. I also have friends in town who feel the same way. The guy is going to have alot of people turning against him come November. The same can be said for Ruocco. He has brought absolutely nothing to the table since being elected.
as I see it the council members who deserve relection are Tim, Orsini, Hall, Esty and Altieri. Ecke and Visconti really dont bring anything to the table at all.
This town needs some additional fresh blood on the council and preferable open minded, non partisan thinkers.
I will vote for any P and Z member who votes this up. I will not vote for any P and Z member who votes this down-that simple
The entire Council has earned the right to be removed from office. We should seriously consider a Mayoral form of government. Each of the Council members has their own hidden agenda, Alteri wants turf fields and more baseball. Very kind of him to recuse himself from the latest discussions on the ballfields, after he violated the Conflict of Interest Rule. Makes no difference now Matt, the damage has been done. White has no clue on anything, anymore. Visconti is the official "thank you person" provides no value or input. Hall is practicing stand up comedy, Ruocco does nothing, Orsini is angry, Schrumn just says no, Esty makes promises she cannot keep and is only working to a State elected position. Ecke does not belong, with a brother who is a police officer and the coach he of all shoould recuse himself from everyhting.
Is Kunde running again?
Attn bloggers. Did you ever give consideration to the element of this project that is not politics? Lets face it. We're talking about shopping. The town has 26,000 isolated shoppers cooped up in crampt quarters with 3 cars low on fuel. Alas a shopping center comes in and a spending spree is born. The locals are satiatied, the tax coffers overflow. The young taxpayers hug the old taxpayers as they can finally join hands and shake hands with a Weiner. A Weiner that helped everbody. And another good thing is Southington folks can walk to the shopping center by way of the linear trail. Its really unbelievable that all of this could be done by shoppers and one Weiner. Thank goodness to all the visionaries helping to bring a state of kumbayah to Cheshire. And you know if this works out I bet the folks in Middlefield, Prospect and Durham lobby to get an interchange put in their towns.
Is that Seaside, FL, where it's WARM all year long?
If you believe in "new urbanism" give some thought to revitalizing the Maplecroft area. Those buildings are old and with the PO to be empty soon and the "plaza block" across from St Bridgets falling apart...now would be a good time to build a REAL Life Style Center....its called downtown Cheshire.
Fake towns like Weiner is proposing are just that....fake.
As for comparing this to other areas of the country, NE is not Florida or Phoenix. Its cold here...sitting in an "amphitheatre" 9 months out of the year will not be fun. These "public spaces" are bribes to get the locals to fall for these shopping centers.
In Arizon and Florida there are large planned residential communites with thousands of people....and they do build centralized retail areas. That's NOT what this is....it is the start of another traffic choked intersection with acres of parking lots and box stores. If you want to live in a place with this near by I suggest Dixwell Ave in Hamden, Queen street in Southington or maybe the beautiful Route 5 in Wallingford. It won't happen over night, BUT IF YOU CHANGE THE ZONING IN THE NORTH END THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL END UP WITH.
HAPPY SHOPPING!
If you want to live in a 1940's style town with no industry and no development and no real hope for the future than go do so. If Cheshire doesnt welcome and build a development such as this inevitably what will occur is property taxes will be in the tens of thousands, families will leave, seniors will be forced to leave there homes and the only ones left will be the closed minded old timers who will than be free to drive up and down route 10 with no traffic and shop at the one grocery store and gas station because everyone else went out of business or left town due to the taxes and lack of customers.
Get your heads out of the sand. if this town is going to be economically viable and be sustained it needs development and this one fits.
As fort he various comments about various town councilors, I will say this, the only ones getting my vote in November are Tim, Hall, Orsini and Esty. The rest can go home as far as I am concerned.
11:19 doesn't matter to me. Vic House regulars get no votes from moi.
Anon 4:14 downtown Cheshire? sounds great, but give me a break. Businesses need to make money. Let me guess. You work for the state?
Fake? Is it "natural" development in the rest of Cheshire? It's all "fake"
Bribes? Sounds like the linear park!
I don't want the development because I hate development. But I'm not dishonest about my reasons.
I didn't see the meetings on tv. Did any of the Council members give these reasons for there opposition? If so, I consider them liars.
I have been watching this project for some time. I have lived in town for 6 years moved from NJ. It is good for Cheshire and it was good for NJ. All this negative talk is just plain hot air.
414 nice comment Dave but we have heard it all before blab blab and blab
Its gonna happen and ya better get used to it
Please, whoever it is that keeps making comments about councilors, take your crap somewhere else. Stick to the issues at hand and keep your immature, rude name-calling comments to yourself.
I swear you all sound like whining complaining two year olds.
Please Tim, keep deleting their rude remarks.
11:00pm... sorry. Can't keep up at this point with every comment. However, if you direct me to specific comments, I'll certainly consider deleting them.
I don't want liablous (sp??) remarks on here... even though I take all of these remarks with a grain of salt.
Nice post 10:12 am or should I say Dave Schrumm!!!!!
Tim I love you
Dave Schrumm -
GET A JOB AND LEAVE CHESHIRE ALONE!!!!!!!!
Maybe if you could get along with people your mood would be better!!!
12:04 re: schrumm on iraq - is that true?
8:58 Give me a break..no one would say they don't care about our kids dying in Iraq. That's just another idiot trying to create rumors.
But if you're looking for a truthful statement - remember this one - Esty stated that anyone who can't afford the taxes in Cheshire should move out of town. She obviously doesn't care about the seniors or anyone else struggling to meet their tax bills.
Thanks Dave, 11:38am.
12:52 Wrong...try again.
sue
I agree with 4:14. That whole Maplecroft area along with the strip of near vacant, rundown shops across from St Bridgets should be done over with shops, a book store, family restaurant, etc. It's more centrally located and more easily accessible. If I'm going to travel from the south end of Cheshire to a lifestyle center at the north end filled with "high end" shops, I might as well cut down Academy Road and head over the the Meriden Square.
The last post about Maplecroft Plaza and the stores across from the church conveniently ignores two important details:
A) Maplecroft is owned by a commercial real estate company that unless I've missed something isn't exactly rushing forward to make changes.
B) The grouping of stores across from the church, if I'm not mistaken, is owned by a member of the Bowman family. I would imagine they have plans for the property, but given the slow death (the departure of businesses) that complex is experiencing, the Bowmans don't appear to be in any hurry either.
Mr. Schrumm somehow forgot to mention all this when he floated this idea at the initial meeting with W/S. I'm not trying to ridicule him - he deserves some credit for all the time he has put in serving the town - but this particular idea is a pipe dream, particularly as it relates to W/S.
The bottom line is this: There are a lot of things that residents in town would like to see done. Some would like to see high tech office parks and manufacturing firms in the North End. If this were a perfect world, so would I. But you're in denial if you think that by rejecting W/S that a manufacturer or a high tech firm is going to materialize in short order. We live in a changing world and right now, the chances of those type of operations coming to Cheshire are slim and none.
And the longer we wait to face up to this, the drip of middle class families being forced out of Cheshire because of rising tax rates continues to grow.
Let the PZC do its job and strike a compromise with W/S that doesn't involve residential. There's a far better chance of that happening than there is of the kind of overhaul of Maplecroft Plaza and the surrounding area that isbeing talked about.
No new residential, we should close the town.
"Mr. Schrumm somehow forgot to mention all this when he floated this idea at the initial meeting with W/S."
Nothing new for him.
Too long in office.
Nancy Johnson '07!
Go Murphy!
Go Dems!
Another important question at anyone who is against this project should answer is, how office space is currently empty in town? And would anyone build more if we have all of this space available.
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