PZC vote on C&D Plan
In an unusual (and good) move, tonight's PZC meeting is being televised. I just watched the deliberations on W/S' proposed changes to our Plan of Conservation and Development.
It was interesting. The dialogue included an exchange over apparent contradictions within the Plan and amendments followed. That part of the discussion was led largely by Rich Levy and Paul Ranando with (I believe) the amendments all failing.
In the end, the PZC voted 7-2 (Ranando, Slocum opposed) to amend the Plan of Conservation & Development with both residential and retail now available as options.
The proposed zone text change passed (7-2) with the same votes of commissioners in support and opposition.
Tim White
62 comments:
What a joke! The P&Z members stated that they would have total control of the project. They also stated that at a later date they could even eliminate the residential component. Who are they kidding, once they approved the change to include residential, if they deny residential later the developer will take the town to court and win. Why does our P&Z make these decisions without the town lawyer present. One P&Z member asked why the lawyer was not there. Why do we even have a town lawyer?
Seems to me that it was only Slocum and Ranando that listened to the public and suggested removing the residential component. The other members said they felt residential should be included and that they could basically pick and choose what applications to accept. They said if a proposal came forward all the facts would be reviewed then. Seems all the facts should have been reviewed before they made the change. The impact of possibly having residential included in the entire 400 acres would be enormous. What a mistake they made! And did I hear it correctly that having mixed use including residential will now extend beyond the 400 acres of the IC zone? Even the commission members seemed confused on the issue.
Maybe we will not see anymore of the poet on this blog. Thanks P&Z for that.
Confusion was the word. They needed legal help and it wasn't there. WHY? WHY? WHY? No they didn't even take into consideration any public comments or concerns. They wanted the residential so bad. WHY? WHY? WHY? Residentgate.....
The lack of the town attorney was puzzling to me too. I don't know the reasons behind it (presumably there are good reasons), but it seems to me that this issue merited the presence of the town attorney (or more appropriately a land use attorney from the firm) for each meeting and public hearing.
Anyone know the story behind this?
The developer got everything they asked for and even more. They didn't need the residential but we gave it to him as a bonus. The door has been opened and it can never be closed as some member said "its a gamble". I just wish he gambled with his money and not mine. Let's see what round 2 brings and what control we really do have. I think many (7) will be surprised.
Puzzling? How about disregard for the citizens of Cheshire. The TC should require a lawyer at every P&Z meeting. Someone should bring it up. What a circus. I'm sorry but Mr. Cobern and Mr. Voelker are not leagl experts.
there is joy in Cheshire
especially in the north side
we have turned the tide
against the old timers
and scare tactics folks
three cheers for the PZ
Three cheers for all
Three cheers for the P&Z (Public Zoo).
The P&Z had a choice, vote for keeping Cheshire a fmily town or give the town away to the developers, Bowman, Calcagni and W/S.
They choose against their neighbors 7 to 2 and to show their full support for the developers the 7 insisted on the residential, knowing 90% of the people are against residential and that it is the selling of the Cheshire school system.
Woody Dawson presented a very thoughtful point of view when he threw all reason aside and proclaimed that his entire life has been a gamble, and that he was ready to take a chance on this and vote yes. He might not be the Oracle of Delphi, but he doesn't hesitate to share his wisdom.
Others gave there reasons for voting yes, but their reasons were less convincing than Woody's.
"And did I hear it correctly that having mixed use including residential will now extend beyond the 400 acres of the IC zone?"
You heard it correctly and Harris made sure that the Town Plan of Conservation and Development now agreed with the property on the corner of Mountain Rd and Rt 70 that allows mixed use were now in agreement. What's it mean? It will be impossible to keep housing out of the current commercial zones. Wherever their is space in a commercial zone, you can expect housing to be possible. They could deny housing but a court would look at the plan of development and would side with the developer.
This was a sneak attack that even many of the commission members had not thought through, but most things haven't been thought through. As Voelker said it was there in the wording so the public had been informed. Right?
What's the downside? More housing and more selling of Cheshire's school system and increased taxes, but more money for the developers and realtors.
Forget the pool, these people really stuck it to us.
11:36, now that you've won, you can lay off the seniors whom you've been dismissing for months as "old timers". They're human beings too, with legitimate and sincere concerns about our town. Please be a gentleman and spare us further gloating and name calling.
If this went to a townwide vote it would pass by huge numbers. The PZ voted with the people not the 6 people who show up at every meeting and play the game of just say no
Sorry folks but you have to admit defeat
Is it too early to make reservations for dinner?
Seven members of the P&Z and the Town planner did not protect the town. One should be fired and the others not re-elected. This proposed change to the zone text could have been amended to protect Cheshire from the courts and state dictation of our zoning laws. Why no town lawyer at this very very important meeting leaves me with a sick feeling about his whole proceedure. Many P&Z members had no clue what was going on but they were very anxious to make sure that the proposal passed and it had to include the residential. You could see that they were not comfortable. If they truly believed that this was best for Cheshire they certainly left many loop holes. Both P&Z and staffing(which was praised for what I don't know) did a terrible job. The Town planner even tried to say it was made public(the back ot The Cheshire Herald) and it was covered. He is thinking of the citizens I guess? The P&Z members didn't even know what the hell they were voting on at some points. I didn't care what the results of the vote was but the whole process needs to be reviewed for future proposals brought forth.
Anon 8:29 Your'e not a math major but must have ESP. There were more than six people at the meeting and how do you know what they are thinking or feeling? You have not won anything yet and for the other person who wants to make dinner reservtions it's going to be a long wait. Try another restaurant in town before they close.
I hope the project include 250 apartments for low income housing. That is what the snobs in Cheshire deserve.
How long to the application process starts? Do you think that we will see one before year end?
9:14 AM
The developer mentioned here, that they will file an application within weeks.
8:58 wants 250 units of low-income housing. Hurray for "diversity". Well, it's not snobbish to want to spare your kids all the pathologies of urbanism.
Just look at what happened in the "low-income housing" in West Palm Beach recently (for those who are unaware, google up "Avion Lawson"). Nor is this about "racism"-- it's about wanting civilized behavior in our town.
If the residential component is put up to public referendum, I have no doubt it will be handily overturned. Such projects almost always cost towns more than they bring in.
emma's dad must be thrilled, you got what you asked for, now will you really get what you wanted?
What will emma think?
Wait until all the public finds out what was really passed last night. Good luck elected officials. Nov is comming.
ED wants everyone to have a Cheshire education. Are you a teacher in Cheshire?
Change the charter this towns form of government is not representing the people any longer. Someone should run on this in NOV.
9:32:00 AM You are a snob and racist. Very clear.
9:32 AM
If implying that urban, low-income people, most of whom are minorities, are incapable of civilized behavior and prone to gang rape and torture is not racism, then what is?
9:41 AM
I think now is the time to prepare for a sober and thorough analysis of the developer's application. It would be regrettable if those who opposed the text changes, felt that the game was lost and gave up. The process has just started, and we need everyone's thoughtful input about the proposed development. It's not whether I get what I want (though my kids would take issue with that), but whether we can work toward something that is acceptable to most residents. You are opposed to residential and I am in favor. Hopefully, we can find a compromise that may not fully satisfy either of us, but allows us to remain optimistic about the future of Cheshire.
9:45 AM
No, I'm not a teacher the Cheshire Public Schools. Do they pay enough to afford a house in town? : )
Ranando and Slucum did not get all that they wanted, but at least they got the wording that the residential should be minimized. Let's see what we actually get. As far as the residents who opposed the residential giving up I definitely don't think that will happen. This will be in the courts longer than you think. We have yet to hear from Westfield. I don't think their going to lay down and die either.
ED, I'm NOT saying that most urban, low-income people are incapable of civilized behavior. But it's a fact that disproportionate numbers of crimes happen there (something like a third of urban males are in and out of prison). Statistics are not racist, they're just facts. Stop using claims of "racism" to deny the facts.
If people of any color can afford a mortgage to buy an even modest condo in Cheshire, they're welcome. We just don't need the federal & state governments to be subsidizing the spread of urban pathology (section 8).
Again, residential would be handily defeated at referendum.
Yesterday I went to the Meriden mall, it was 96 degrees in the parking lot, but when I went in the mall it was so nice and comfortable. After I did all my shopping, I hated to leave.
As I drove home, I thought of the Lifestyle Center and how nice it would have been to sit outside on one of the benches and how nice it would have been to stroll from store to store. I just can't wait to meet my friends there. And, if I'm lucky I could bump into some of the P&Z, and Council members that worked so hard for it. So, whether it's hot and sticky, cold and freezing or just rainy you will always have fun at the lifestyle center.
10:32 AM
Sorry, I missed the statistics in your original post. Instead, I saw you link low-income housing with a rare and atrocious event and not mention the majority of people who try to maintain civilized living conditions. If crime is as bad as you claim in urban areas, then why do you refuse a helping hand to those who would like to escape and create better lives for their families?
ED You must attend some BOE or town budget meetings. You will be surprised at some of the salaries. They deserve it and they can afford Cheshire if they don't buy a McMansion. Anyone can move into Cheshire if they look hard. There are plenty of lower price homes that all the "OLD TIMERS" are selling. Remember that in the 60's and 70'S small affordable homes were built in town. Only one income counted to qualify for a mortgage. Around my side of town we have diversity young, old, black, white , asian etc. Look around.
ED,
I did try to lend a helping hand to those who wanted to improve their lives. For ten years I was an inner-city public school teacher (who finally quit, like 50% of all new teachers nationally, because of the appalling behavior.
I had been a lifelong liberal Democrat prior to that, but here's what I found out. The bad students were not failing due to "poverty, racism, bad schools," etc, but because of their lack of decent parenting, motivation, and orderly behavior.
At the same time, I had plenty of good students who lived in the same urban neighborhoods in the same conditions. Why were these kids successful? Because their parents, usually moms, actually disciplined their kids and insisted on good grades and good behavior. Like Bill Cosby's toughlove approach. These kids and their families will eventually be able to move to places like Cheshire without section 8 handouts.
Well intentioned liberals, and not so well intentioned racialist activists, always see "racism" as the root cause of poverty and crime. But I learned through first hand experience that 70% of the problems of urban people are due to their own poor choices; 25% are the same problems we all face (didn't get that promotion, tight on money, etc); and only 5% is real racism (at least in our part of the country).
The (black) governor of Mass., Deval Patrick, recently told a group of urban youths: pull up your pants, get rid of the hip-hop attitude, speak proper English, and get an education and a job.
This is how to move to Chershire.
Turn out the lights
The party's over
They say that
All good things must end
Call it tonight
The party's over
And tomorrow starts
The same old thing again
But the crazy crazy party
Never seen so many people
Laughing dancing
Look at you you're having fun
But look at me
I'm almost cryin'
That don't keep her love from dyin'
Misery cause for me the party's over
Turn out the lights...
Once I had a love undyin'
I didn't keep it but I tried
Life for me was just one party
And then another
I broke her heart so many times
I had to have my parting wife
I had to have my party
Why broke her heart so many times
But one day she said
Sweetheart the party's over
Turn out the lights...
Step back oldtimer
Ws and the boys gonna getcha something reeeel nice
Nice place to live
eat dinner
and shopppes
You tried but failed
the party's over
go back to Petticoat Junction
Here are some statistics I posted under another topic.
In 2006, the median selling price of a house in Cheshire was $340,000; the distribution was
<100K............7
100-200K ......10
200-300K ......76
300-400K ......77
>400K...........93
The price of housing in Cheshire is reflected in the median household income which was $92,000 for 2006*. A search of Realtor.com listed 207 homes with at least 2 bedrooms for sale. Of these, only 8% were listed at less than $250K. So, there is a limited and shrinking supply of affordable housing.
Despite your neighborhood, Cheshire is by no means a diverse community. I guess having lived elsewhere gives me a different perspective on diversity.
*source
11:31 AM
If you had plenty of good students with good parents who eventually seemed capable of moving here, I wonder why they have not shown up. Is it because housing prices in Cheshire have increased significantly faster than incomes, so that if you could not afford a house in Cheshire 5 years ago, you definitely can't afford one now?
This would fall under the 25% of problems we all face, in this case, housing prices rising faster than incomes.
But this is not the reason why most Dixwell Ave area residents can't move to Cheshire (nor could they 5-10 years ago). If you're 18 and your aspiration in life is to be a hip-hop "artist" and your parent(s) never had the sense to get real with you, I don't want to subsidize your move to Cheshire just so some well intentioned liberals can feel good about "diversity".
Something like a third of blacks have become middle class homeowners in the last 30+ years. These folks made good choices and didn't look back. There was some mortgage assistance, but they didn't get there by section 8 and other welfare handouts.
"Yesterday I went to the Meriden mall, it was 96 degrees in the parking lot, but when I went in the mall it was so nice and comfortable. After I did all my shopping, I hated to leave.
As I drove home, I thought of the Lifestyle Center and how nice it would have been to sit outside on one of the benches and how nice it would have been to stroll from store to store. I just can't wait to meet my friends there."
Let me get this straight - you hated to leave the air conditioning in the Meriden Mall, but you can't wait to sit outside the Lifestyle Center with your friends on a bench sweating your ass off on a day like today. That makes no sense.
Funny how the vote went 7-2 about split between dem and rep and the no was one dem and one rep
Must burn schrumms ass to know that his own party deserted him on this one
"Let me get this straight"
Well, what do you think these people are thinking of when they say they can't wait to go there?
They're realtors and developers and you will see them at the covered malls where you don't sweat to death, freeze or get drenched as you sit on your cutsy park bench. What really makes this type of mall popular is that it is cheap to build.
"I guess having lived elsewhere gives me a different perspective on diversity."
I guess you should of thought of that before you moved to Cheshire. Why did you come here? You should of stayed where you were rather than move to a place you don't seem to like and try to change it by introducing more costs for the people who make far less than your $92,000.
Do you live in a condo?
So on 500,000 sqft of shops they'll be able to put in 200,000 sqft of housing, correct? My little 3 bedroom house is just 1250 sqft so that could mean 160 units the same size on just 1/4 of the north end zone. They may claim only 2 bedrooms per unit but it would be very easy to turn another room into a bedroom. So it's quite possible someone could have 2 or 3 kids in each unit. That's 320 to 480 more kids in our schools over time. Not to mention that the other 3 sections of the north end could have the same or more units/houses built adding even more kids to our school system.
Big mistake made by those 7 members of the P & Z.
2:03 PM
I moved here because the people were so welcoming.
ED Is the hill section of New Haven diverse enough for you? That's were I lived before moving to Cheshire. Yes, Cheshire is welcoming but it's not for everyone. People move to certain towns and parts of the State for various reasons. I had a good friend move from Meriden to Cheshire but his children returned to the Meriden schools because they didn't have the "IN" jeans and were ridiculed.
Anon11:31 GREAT COMMENT.
11:51 here. Thanks for the last comment. Winston Churchill's definition of a conservative -- "a liberal who's been mugged".
There once was a group called the CAVEMen
who thought they were all men
they moaned and they groaned
the bitched and they boned
but ws and the boys got the best of em
Happy days are here again
This is not over or victory for WS by a long shot. WS is going to have many hurdles to pass before this is approved. That is how it should be!
I guess Mr. CAVEman isn't going to be a gentleman, but will continue to spam his gloating. What have others called him? Boorish and childish. But he doesn't care under cowardly cover of Anonymous.
The Waterbury Republican article stated that the majority of residents did not want residential, but apparently their views were not important. It's unfortunate when our elected officials don't listen to the people who elected them.
We may be able to repeal residential by referedum.
Tell us how!
"majority of residents did not want residential"
If the residents knew the full story of what they were getting, they would have been against the whole thing.
Wake up people, you were bagged. W/S was only the front. Do you really think W/S wanted the mixed use verbage, residential, to be added town plans wording on commercial zone uses? The town plan now encourages mixed use in all of the town's commercial zones, and does not restrict mixed use to just the interchange. The town plan allows residential in all, all, all, all, all, all existing commercial zones in the entire, entire, entire town of Cheshire.
Of course a zone change application would probably have to be made for any existing commercial zone, but that would be a easily done.
You will see a flood of applications to build housing in these other areas and since there is already commercial, they will most likely be able to build just the housing. This wasn't for W/S's benefit, remember how many times they said housing wasn't important to them, it could certainly be of benefit to the local developers, the Calcagnis, Bowmans and others.
Surprise everyone, these 7 P&Z people have opened the door to more than any developer could have dreamed of.
That's one of the reasons they didn't want an attorney presen, did not want TV coverage, and didn't post the meeting minutes on the website. The Democrat controlled Council which has 2 lawyers had the power, the TM, the Town Planner, and the Chairman of the P&Z commission did nothing to provide this information. Shame on all of them. We have been had.
A premise offered by many posters is that once an area is zoned for mix use, developers will be quick to submit plans for residential in those areas. From what I understood of the P&Z meeting Monday night, there are already areas outside the north end that are zoned for mixed use. I believe the golf course on West Main and Mountain was mentioned. If developers are so eager for mixed use land, why haven't we seen a flood of applications to develop these areas?
"why haven't we seen a flood of applications to develop these areas? "
It's coming. They're cookin you up a big surprise.
Let me get this right the Town Council decides if the Town Attorney attends the P&Z meetings? Is that ture? That does not make sense to me.
"That does not make sense to me."
The town council doesn't have any authority over any commission or the TM?
The council does not have authority of another elected body. The Council can't tell the BOE what to do and could not tell the P&Z what to do. They decide if they want the TA there or not.
1:31 pm - Wow, I was just wondering, what color are the clouds in your world?
ED 10:39 These two areas you mentioned did not come as cheap as the 100 acres inthe NE. Go look at your book. Can't make a huge profit. Not large enough. It's been approved for mixed use because the corner lot was mixed for years. No bites yet and no construction as of today. It will work fine because that is the true meaning of mixed -use (small retail with apts above). P&Z gave them a hard time. Golf course waiting for NE result???
Yo....get ready to hire a bunch of special education teachers up in da house when they build these apartments and we get what we axed for yo.....
Post a Comment