My lesson from Tuol Sleng High School
Waterboarding has been a hot topic with the Presidential race lately. I believe all the Dems are vocally opposed to it, but the GOP field is split (Huckabee, McCain & Paul opposed). Having lived in the Hanoi Hilton for five years, Senator McCain speaks to this issue with real life experience.
For me, the closest "experience" I have is from a visit to a prison of Brother Number One (a.k.a. Pol Pot). When he took Phnom Penh in 1975, he converted Tuol Sleng High School to "Security Prison 21." I visited it in 1996. (I've visited concentration camps from Auschwitz to Andersonville and it's probably because those atrocities happened before I was born, but... for me Tuol Sleng hit home even harder.)
Anyway, between visiting The Killing Fields and Tuol Sleng, it definitely was one of the more moving experiences of my life. Here you can see the memorial at the center of The Killing Fields that I walked through... a place where I, quite literally, could've picked up the clothing of the people who lay there dead and half buried. I'll never forget their clothes at my feet.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/
Then I visited Tuol Sleng where these paintings were drawn by a native Australian who decided to remain in Phnom Penh... when all the other foreigners were evacuating.
Here's the painting where the Khmer Rouge used scorpions:
http://img.scoop.co.nz/
Here's a painting of something else the Khmer Rouge did:
www.downtheroad.org/
And here's a photo of the actual "tool":
www.downtheroad.org/
And while I remember seeing all of these things in person... and still being distraught over the thought of how people could actually do these things to people, here's the painting that seems relevant today
http://unusuallystupidpoliticians.com/
Then compare that image with this image:
http://southdakotapolitics.blogs.com/
Seems a bit too similar for my taste. And while the "ticking time bomb" scenario is possible, I'm not comfortable with America using the same tactics as one of the most despicable regimes in history.
I doubt this will be a significant factor in the GOP primaries, but as far as I'm concerned... Huckabee, McCain and Paul are right on this one.
Tim White
20 comments:
Alan Dershowitz infuriated the reactionary left when he made this proposal regarding torture. I think it's a good comprimise for exceptional situations.
Dershowitz proposes that "torture warrants" would have to be approved by judges much like search warrants. And they can only be approved when human lives are at risk (ie: "ticking bomb" situation).
Perhaps we should have let Werner Von Braun work for the Soviets. After all, his V-1 and V-2 rockets did a lot more harm to noncombatants than waterboarding does to known terrorists
Every now again Alan Dershowitz makes more sense than a Republican. With Ron Paul, it happens rather frequently, actually
Well Tim, I guess you,Huckabee, McCain and Paul would rather see a few more 9/11s before you come to your senses. Go down to the World Trade center area instead of overseas and ponder the loss of INNOCENT AMERICAN LIVES!!! If you equate what Pol Pot and Hitler did to what we did to a few terrorists you may as well become a Democrat and "Hate America First".
I have a family member who told me stories about waterboarding and renditions back in Clinton days and Bush 1...I never get why they lay this on Bush 2...
Hey 11:10 I wish you had the balls to use your name
according to the caption, this is a waterboarding photo from the Vietnam War
http://bp3.blogger.com/_iPVBvyHM4Co/RyDf2b1wWxI/AAAAAAAAAb0/14rJ43jPnkk/s1600-h/waterboarding.jpg
to Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:10:00 PM
Do you realize how costly bad intel can be? That's what you're getting when you torture, and it can put men in harms way on a fools errand or worse.
And, in regards to information gathering, what about our reputation? It's damned hard to get intel when folks despise and distrust Americans.
It's amazing to me that people speak of routine torture as a necessary evil, as it were wicked but effective. It doesn't work in the short term and fails us horribly in the long term.
We have had attacks on American soil before. Our capitol has even been set ablaze. http://www.multied.com/1812/Washington.html And before that, where would we be if our founding fathers gave into their fears and exchanged their values for every sort of savagery that made them _feel_ the slightest bit more secure?
During the revolution Washington is said to have repeated this to troops ready to beat captives with sticks: “Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren.” Biographer David Hackett Fischer notes that Washington, "often reminded his men that they were an army of liberty and freedom, and that the rights of humanity for which they were fighting should extend even to their enemies.”
Also, it cannot possibly be helpful to make comments like this: "you may as well become a Democrat and "Hate America First"." Members of both parties look forward to a happy, healthy, and productive future for our country -- they just disagree on how to get there. Have you ever actually met a republican or a democrat that hates America? Especially in times of crisis, it's important not to operate out of fear. You’re comment is nothing but an attempt to motivate using fear.
I suggest you think a bit more about the efficacy of what you are promoting and exactly what you are doing when you promote it using fear, as you did.
CSH, if waterboarding someone from A-Q would have saved Bhutto's life, would it have been worth it ?
We have to deal with the world as it is, not how we would like to to be
No life is worth losing but Bhutto was only a puppet for the US government. She was Prime Minister twice and twice removed from office for corruption.
when we treat our friends worse than our enemies we should expect that our foreign policy will fail
This why we have the "blame America first" meme. Because some people do
when we treat our friends worse than our enemies we should expect that our foreign policy will fail
huh? In your argument, who is our friend and who is our enemy? I presume the enemy is Al Qaida, but who is the friend?
I was responding to the prior poster who dissed Bhutto.
Liberals and libertarians have a very warped and naive view of foreign policy. I think late Mayor Daley of Chicago had it figured out better: you make sure your guy wins since popularity follows winning.
Dissing our allies and military leads people offshore to think it is better to be against our interests than for them.
Liberals and libertarians have a very warped and naive view of foreign policy
But since he wanted to "avoid entangling alliances," was George Washington's view warped and naive? (IMO, air travel doesn't make that statement any less true.)
Also, who are our allies? Saudi?
well, considering Jefferson was cutting deals right and left with France at the time, I think I'd give GW's opinion slightly less weight
evidently even then some alliances were worth the entanglement
And Jefferson unwittingly memorialized "the shores of Tripoli." But I didn't invoke TJ. I invoked GW.
You seem to have little regard for GWs foreign policy though... which is legitimate. It's your opinion. Nonetheless, I doubt this is a discussion that will likely ever find agreement.
TJ was GW's SOS
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/tj3.html
I'm no expert, but here goes with a very brief timeline...
Jefferson at the end of (his SOS tenure in) 1793 retired to Monticello where he continued to orchestrate opposition to Hamilton and Washington (wikipedia includes citations)
1797 Washington's farewell address - "friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none"
Jefferson was wonderful... but he was not George Washington... who was IMO... one of the greatest men (probably him and Cincinnatus) to have ever lived.
Tim, might I suggest the appropriate agenda for a small, young nation might be slightly different than that of a mature superpower. Had a contemporary British or French statesman made those remarks in 1797 they would have been laughed off the stage.
Some people have no interest in liking us. It might be wise to limit their influence, eh?
Anon @ 4:54
I was not dissing Bhutto or our allies, I was speaking fact of her performance when she was prime Minister. The only reason we supported her was she stated she would allow troops to go after Bin Laden. The other guys have not made that statement, they have lead us to believe they would support the idea but really do not. Go ask any local Pakastani, find one that would have supported her.
This comparison is not reasonable nor is it logical. The torture techniques of the Khmer Rouge are compariable to water boarding???? (scorpions vs. water on the face?) Come on.
Post a Comment