PZC public hearing 11/27
It's 2:15am and I just spoke at, and returned from, the PZC public hearing for the ND. I'm too tired to comment right now, but did you watch it? Any comments? I'll try to post on it tomorrow... and I'll upload the perplexing, if not misleading, fiscal impact analysis.
Tim White
65 comments:
Was it on TV? I couldn't find it. They were showing the Oct 22 meeting on Ch 14.
I assumed it was on TV, but don't know... I just ran up to town hall at 9pm... I assumed residents wouldn't be allowed to talk until at least 9pm... and as I pointed out, I didn't speak (for the second time) until 2am.
Anyway, Henry Chase taped it. So I'm assuming that he'll be playing the seven hour meeting again.
It was on TV. Over 6 hours of tape.
As with all P&Z meetings on the Northend Mall, the applicant, their consultants and lawyer were given free reign at the microphone as they ran out the clock. They used close to 90% of the time and as a result, many of the public who had hoped to ask questions or provide their thoughts, left in frustration. The W/S consultants went on and on about a lot of subjects that should have been covered before the last meeting. Although, W/S was adding more information, Westfield was accused of asking new questions.
A citizens opposition group presented a petition with 595 signatures opposed to the W/S plan and pointed out that the W/S petition on file had only 227 signatures, refuting Justin Adinalfi's claim in the Cheshire herald of over 550 in support. 595 signatures indicates that there are a significant number of people that understand that this is not a good thing.
Milone's review of the impact study was as expected. He has been for this project before it ever appeared before the TC. And, his estimates managed to show there would be a net benefit to the town. He kept their estimate of gross tax revenue to the town even though it is obviously unrealistically high. He accepted their crazy estimate of only 11 more students. And, he figured out how to spread out the added infra structure costs to other development in the northend and to other expected growth there. The police chief, fire chief and town engineer supported their boss, what a surprise.
Also, not surpisingly the TM downplayed his estimates by saying they were just estimates and if in the future they find that they need more resources to support the development, he would not hesitate to take ask for more to protect the public. How nice.
All in all, the TM did a great job for the applicant and the public lost. Instead of an unbiased review, the public got what many expected.
Around 2 o'clock they finally ran the clock out and closed off the the public from asking any more questions. Now the applicant is free to deal directly with the planning dept staff, while the public is completely shut out. Since the Town Planner is a strong advocate for this development, you know they will get what they want and the people of Cheshire will get whatever W/S does.
The P&Z Meeting last night was a slap in the face to the town taxpayers. There was no reason this could not have been carried over to another evening. The developer, Westfield, Town Manager and all the rest could have put on their dog and pony show one evening and the public should have had the opportunity to talk on another evening. Many people who were there to speak left. I have the feeling P&Z isn't really interested in what the taxpayers have to say.
Bend over Cheshire. Here comes W/S
I thought the hearing was very fair and open. It was long but it allowed all to have their say. All in all it was good and was well run.
Thank you Marty Cobern!
"All in all it was good and was well run."
Sure it was well run if you're W/S, the local developers who most likely will do the residential or others that will feed off it.
This proposal will make the pool look like a success story. Do we get 11 students or 111?
anon 9:30 This law that keeps the public from talking to the people that they subsidize with hard earned tax dollars must be reviewed. It stinks from the word go. We must contact our state senators and reps ASAP. There are going to be more proposals before us and the public should not be shut out at anytime - period. As far as the TM's so called review. It was a lot of BS. They used smoke and mirrors. A retail establishment is taxed on inventory and goods. When the building is vacant the owners use the no income excuse for tax relief. The TM team didn't take that into account, thus the higher numbers.
A funny thing happened on the way to the town hall. There was a brainstorming meeting going on at the Dem Headquarters on Main St. Also a bunch of high profile Democrats showed up at the town hall together (a little late). Interesting isn't it? Wonder what the topic of conversation was?
A large disappointment is one way to describe the charade that was carried on. It was very clear that Patti Flynn Harris is in support of the project, just by the way she commented and addressed the Westfield folks. She did not want to hear any comments, questions or position against the development. In a previous meeting Marty Cobern attempted to offer into evidence his own personal plan for traffic flow, what was that all about. That is like a juror offering up evidence for the defendant. The entire process is a joke and the conduct of some of those in a decision making position is criminal.
Here is a suggestion: anyone who is on a town board or commission should be barred from doing any type of business with owners, renters etc of any development they approved.
So for a mere 1 or 2 million dollars that will steadily decline over the years we allowed our elected representatives to sell out the town.
The long anonymous poster seems to suggest that Milone had reason to operate in the interest of someone other than the town, "All in all, the TM did a great job for the applicant and the public lost. Instead of an unbiased review, the public got what many expected."
What interest would Milone have in acting against the public? Is he running for office? Is he accepting bribes?
Is it possible that the experience and expertise for which Mr. Milone was hired by the Town Council to use helped him draw his own conclusions? He is not running for office. He has no need to pander to the needs of a panicky mob. On the other hand, he has no need to appeal to wealthy interests in order to obtain campaign contributions.
The fact that the hearing did run did 2 a.m. indicates a willingness to try to engage folks. (Bless you Tim for staying the whole time!) How long is long enough? Doesn't PZC have some other way to gather public input?
Last night was very informative and alot came out. WS did a good job job and so did everyone who does not support this project.
I can see both sides in this.
I think Cheshire should support this and I hope Planning and Zoning approve.
seems to be a worthy project
That is my opinion
The session last night was informative and finally having opposing opinions brings value to the entire process. A main point discussed was the methodology used by the TM and Chiefs to determine a projected amount of increase in their depts due to the development. It is true there has been continued development in the North End and without the Mall we would eventually have to increase fire & police. The mall just got us here quicker. Personally, I do not support the planned development based on the planned revenue of 1.5 to 2.0 mil per year is not a sufficiently high enough revenue increase to justify the development. I believe over the long term the smaller, local business will close and we will have several empty buildings in the South end. It is easy to argue the positions of the fiscal analysis but to allow such a large change for such a small amount of revenue increase is not justifiable.
Anon 11:13 Take off your rose colored glasses. Does Milone & McBroom mean anything to you? The present Town Council has a Democratic majority and is the TM boss. We know how they voted on this proposal etc etc.
How can Mr. Cobern and Mr. Adinolfi keep saying that nothing has happened on that property for so many years? It is private property and an owner can let it sit as long as he/she wants and the town can't do anything about it( as long as the taxes are paid). So please come up with something else. Thank you.
Is Town Manager Milone the same Milone as in Milone and McBroom?
No, their related.
"Milone had reason to operate in the interest of someone other than the town "
What would be surprising about that? It happens all the time all across this country. Cheshire is not an innocent island.
And, I believe the TM and the Milone of Milone and McBroom are cousins.
Anonymous said: "'Milone had reason to operate in the interest of someone other than the town'
What would be surprising about that? It happens all the time all across this country. Cheshire is not an innocent island."
I still don't get it. What would be his motive for acting against the interest of the town?
To increase town staff and thus increase his responsibilities and salary.
I think the reasons many town officials, elected or hired support this project is ego driven...their sense of achievement for the town.
The developers and landowners have obvious motivations free of altruism which is fine by me since that's how investors make a buck.
On the other hand the impression by so many local officials that this is a great thing is very concerning. The wheels are far from falling off as far as the town's finances go yet this project, while a possible revenue positive is certainly a detriment to the overall well being and quality of life of most Cheshire residents.
How many Cheshirites moved to Cheshire to shop?
I say vote no and tell 'em to try again with a smaller proposal with no residential
I say vote no and tell 'em to try again with a smaller proposal with no residential
I for one did not move to Cheshire to shop. I do shop in Cheshire when I must to support local businesses.
Why tell them anything they are big boys and I'm sure the have plan "B" ready.
A previous blogger wrote, "I for one did not move to Cheshire to shop."
So if your point of view is that Cheshire does not need anymore commercial development, then CHANGE THE ZONING. But don't go after the fact and say "I don't want THIS type of commercial" (unless you can prove a threat to public safety). Our economic way of life depends upon a system where people can invest their money in hopes of creating more money. In order for that to happen there needs to be a clear set of rules that everyone must abide by, not rules that can change on the whims and desires of other people because they don't like it, even if they are a majority. Otherwise government by majority rule becomes too intrusive and takes away the rights of individuals.
Did you notice all the realestate ladies, with their "YES" buttons.
Again the boss mustered out to pack the meeting. It's a good thing the meeting ran so late, otherwise all we would have heard from these community interested people would have been a repeat of their earlier statements in April.
"Oh there's no place for me to shop", "What Cheshire needs is more shops", "We have no upscale shops", "We don't have any restaurants", Oh, Oh, I can't wait", "More more, more more shops" ................
..............................
And all the time they had visions of fat commissions dancing in their heads. Such civic minded people.
Why did they move here and why don't they just go and live someplace that has all the stores. How about Meriden?
Does anyone know if they get overtime to attend these meetings?
"Otherwise government by majority rule becomes too intrusive and takes away the rights of individuals."
Perhaps we can now dispense with those annoyances called elections
quod felix 8:52 I simply said I did not move to Cheshire to shop. Nothing against development. You obviously have not followed this from the begining. There were laws from 1954 that were passed and have been followed. Along comes a new state law and a developer that doesn't even own the land can ask to change the law. We changed it. Do some research.
I thought the conversation last night was wonderful. The citizens learned much and the facts were debated, we could not ask for any more.
I think this is a good project overall and I look forward to seeing it built.
10:23PM What was so informative about last nights meeting? The developer presented the same old things that were presented at other meetings. The Town Manager presented a cost study that really meant nothing he basically said "this is what we need but if we find we need more we'll just ask the Town Council for it later" (GREAT FOR THE TAXPAYERS). I can guarantee that request will be coming up sooner than you think. As far as people presenting their comments and concerns, they had to wait until the early morning hours to do it. Talk to the person who was at the podium at 2AM how wonderful he felt.
The Planning and Zoning meeting was really great. It is good that people stayed up that late to make comments and answer questions. It seems that this project will be great for our town and there were many there who supported it.
Who cares? We can make $1.5 million plus a year for a development in that is basically in Southington? Why not?
"The Planning and Zoning meeting was really great"
From your perspective it was great, since you'll be making money on it. W/S and Fazzone went on and on running the clock down so that the public couldn't speak. The supporter that were there were all realtors who were told to attend and hope to make more money.
Most people don't, don't, don't want it.
"this project will be great"
It will be great for the owners of the property, W/S and all you other people that feed off of realestate.
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:37:00 AM
"Who cares? We can make $1.5 million"
Same comment to you as the one above.
You'll have a harder time selling Cheshire once you bring the sprawl in. Why do you think Cheshire property values are higher than surrounding town? Use your head.
The school system is going to be sold for the profit of a few local "good old boys". 11 more students, Ha, Ha Ha. What a joke. The pool will look like a smart decision compared to this sprawl.
The meeting was just wonderful and everyone got a chance to come to the microphone and say what they had on their mind. This is just great as people cared enough to speak out. That was real good -I am proud of our town.
I think the people who want this project made good arguments and so did the people against
But I think the members of the planning and zoning are going to vote for it
That is ok with more tax money and good places to live and shop
Cheshire will still be a great town
Am I wrong is this property not north of 691, in a area that most people did not realize was part for Cheshire??? $1.5 in additional revenue???
I am sure that the people that are against this were also against S&S, people who are against everthing.
There is great opportunity here and it was great to say all the citizens of Cheshire come out pro or con to contribute to the conversation and give input. It seems that most of the people of Chshire are in agreement that this project would be a great asset to out great town
Respect was given to all sides.
$1.5 million is nothing when you compare the costs that will come to us later. Schools, police, fire. Milone basically put the cards on the table when he said he and Florio will come back later if more money is needed. Not to mention the traffic & polution to the river. We've sold Cheshire for a very cheap price. As far as the statement that all Cheshire residents are in favor of this, there are many opposed. Look at the fact that almost 600 signatures were submitted at the P&Z meeting from residents who are opposed to this project. Most of the people I've spoken to are not in favor and their very much opposed to the residential.
"that most of the people of Chshire are in agreement that this project would be a great asset to out great town"
What a total misstatement. You have nothing to back that up. There are only 227 signatures on file in support and most of those were people that support it for their own financial interests.
If you change your statement to say that most realtors think it would be a great asset then we could agree.
Now I am not adamantly against developing a retail project on this site...but....
why do the "pro-mall" comments here all sound like a textbook for first graders...."Dick & Jane go to the Zoning Hearing"?
"The mall will be great. People will have places to shop. Cheshire will still be a great town"
AS far as the comments regarding "it's almost in Southington". We can't cast it away it will belong to Cheshire so get your heads out of the sand. It will be our baby and we must support it forever. More people spoke against or had serious concerns at last nights meeting.
"there needs to be a clear set of rules that everyone must abide by, not rules that can change on the whims and desires of other people because they don't like it"
Wow! Nothing should stand in the way of making money. Let's be clear, zoning is to protect one sector of our town from the other and it is the rule that makes for sane decisions on which people can invest.
In this case the owners of the 107 acres bought the land cheap, as it was zoned industrial. They didn't sell it to any business that would meet that zoning. It is probably not because no one wanted to buy it, but because they could make much more money by changing the zoning. That's why nothing happened there. They didn't want to sell it until they could change the rules for their own profit. So, your point is that it's O'K for a few developers to make big bucks by changing the zoning regulations and the Town Plan of Conservation and Development thus affecting all commercial zones, but it's wrong for anyone to stand in their way. Developers don't have to abide by rules, they just change them.
Greed is good and the hell with everyone else.
Since the zoning laws were changed and this land is more valueable is the town assessor going to visit the owners of the four quadrants in the new SDD??? I hope so and soon.
Whenever everyone gets to weigh in on the issues it is a very good thing. That was going on on Monday night. It was an outstanding night for all of Cheshire. There was some interesting give and take from all sides.
It will be good for all of us if this lifestyle center is built, as just about all the citizens are for it and want to see it built. Sure there are some who don't want it and they have made their claims.
But in the end it will be built.
Ther are so many legal questions when you have residential, commercial and retail on "ONE" parcel of land as proposed. The sewer line breaks in the retail side and floods the condo's, who does the condo owner call?? Are these types of questions being asked by P&Z or our town legal team? The "DAM" comes to mind.
Anon 9:46 Who are you to speak for all of Cheshire? I for one have spoken to many residents and have found there are many who are against this proposal. What about the 600 signatures presented to the P&Z, don't those people count? Are you one of those people who feels if you don't agree with me your wrong and thus discounted? The P&Z has many issues to take into consideration, hopefully they weigh everything carefully, if they don't this may become the second coming of the pool debacle.
What a top notch town we live in/
People come to meetings and voice their opinion and speak their mind,so no matter what the Planning and Zoning will have plenty to think about when they make their decision/
They will vote for it and the town will have another great place to shop and there will be great places to live. It will all work out just fine. Most of the people like this so it will do just fine no real worries
Wow that meeting went on for a very long time.
after watching I think it has beocome clear that everyone wants this project and really supports it
I am so glad I live in a town where people go to meetings to speak their minds and have the time to give their input. We are so lucky to have a chance to have a wonderful developer come to our town.
Thanks to all who showed up and stayed late-it seems that the project will go thru-
It is great to live in this town we are blessed with great services and the people are the best-top notch!
yep, "same as it ever was"
Now I am not adamantly against developing a retail project on this site...but....
why do the "pro-mall" comments here all sound like a textbook for first graders...."Dick & Jane go to the Zoning Hearing"?
"The mall will be great. People will have places to shop. Cheshire will still be a great town"
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:09:00 PM
I have no idea what meeting these prior posts went to or watched, but Patty Flynn-Harris read letters submitted to the P&Z prior to the meeting (all opposed).
The majority of the people in attendance who went to the podium to speak were opposed. 600 signatures submitted from residents opposed to this project. Did these people attend or watch the wrong meeting by mistake?
8:05AM How right you are. Dick -aka Justin Adinolfi, Jane aka Diane Visonti.
There will be great days ahead for the town I am sure of that!
The meeting went really well the other night and it seems that no matter what happens we can come together as a town and move forward. Let's be positive-we live in a great town and a great state and if the lifestyle center is built we will handle all the issues that come with it wihout any problems
If this is so good, why don't the property owners, Paul Bowman, Doug Calcagni and Frank DiNatali come out publicly and tell us why it's so good. If it's as good as Justin Adinalfi says they should be out there taking credit for all their good work. Why don't they appear before the various commissions?
Why do they hide behind LLC's.
yes by gosh let's be postive here-too much negative can really get ya down-either way we here in Cheshire have plenty be thankful for
No need for the gloom and doom
Just accent the positive as the song goes
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay,
My, oh, my, what a wonderful day.
Plenty of sunshine headin' my way,
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay!
Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder,
It's the truth, it's "actch'll"
Everything is "satisfactch'll."
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay,
Wonderful feeling, wonderful day!
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay,
My, oh, my, what a wonderful day.
Plenty of sunshine headin' my way,
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay!
Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder,
It's the truth, it's "actch'll"
Everything is "satisfactch'll."
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay,
Wonderful feeling, feeling this way!
Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder,
It's the truth, it's "actch'll"
Everything is "satisfactch'll."
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay,
Wonderful feeling, wonderful day!
Hi...poster #1 here...about the TV coverage. I watched Ch 14 again last night and indeed in the beginning the date says 10-22-07. During the traffic engineers talk, it changed to the correct date. I'm assuming this was an innocent mistake and fortunately I can see the meeting on tape but how many other citizens who wanted to see it that night live, turned it off thinking it was an old meeting?
Even on tape in the comfort of my home, I could not sit through all 6+ hours of the meeting so I will watch the rest at some point. But it did appear to me that the vast majority of reports were negative. I was disappointed at how many times the chiefs said that this is only the triggering factor. If it were not being built, we would not need 5 add'l police officers and a new fire house. And how come the Dems have been saying NOTHING has been done in the north end, and yet now the Chiefs are saying SO MUCH has been built in the last ten years? It's because the previous developments, like Whole Foods, do not require the add'l town services that the mall will. I would have liked to ask the panel the following:
When Cheshire Industrial Park was built, how many students did it add to the school system? Answer:0
When CIP was built, how many police officers, cruisers, and fire expenses were needed?
How much tax revenue does that development produce for the town on a yearly basis?
How much traffic is generated by that the Industrial Park?
The Ind Park is the type of development needed, not commercial.
Route 10 with 3000 more cars per day...? God help us.
11:45AM WELL SAID! I'm glad someone brought out the fact that the majority of reports were negative and majority of speakers were negative.
I think there are plenty of people who want this and plenty of people who have many quesions/
Great to see everyone talking about it
Keep on talking and discussing
It is good for our town
Whether we build it or not our town will survive
First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong
I learned how to carry on
and so you're back
from outer space
I just walked in to find you here
with that sad look upon your face
I should have changed my stupid lock
I should have made you leave your key
If I had known for just one second
you'd be back to bother me
(Chorus 2)
Go on now go walk out the door
just turn around now
'cause you're not welcome anymore
weren't you the one who tried to hurt me with goodbye
you think I'd crumble
you think I'd lay down and die
Oh no, not I
I will survive
as long as i know how to love
I know I will stay alive
I've got all my life to live
I've got all my love to give
and I'll survive
I will survive
http://www.rare-lyrics.com
It took all the strength I had
not to fall apart
kept trying hard to mend
the pieces of my broken heart
and I spent oh so many nights
just feeling sorry for myself
I used to cry
Now I hold my head up high
and you see me
somebody new
I'm not that chained up little person
still in love with you
and so you felt like dropping in
and just expect me to be free
now I'm saving all my loving
for someone who's loving me
(Chorus 2)
(Chorus 2)
I will survive.
"I will survive."
You will if you don't leave the institution.
chorus
Don't leave the institution.
This good dialouge?????
Some people say a man is made out of mud
A poor man's made out of muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong
You load sixteen tons what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said well a bless my soul
You load sixteen tons what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
I was born one morning it was drizzling rain
Fighting and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebreak by an old mama lion
Ain't no high tone woman make me walk the line
You load sixteen tons what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
If you see me coming better step aside
A lot of men didn't a lot of men died
One fist of iron the other of steel
If the right one don't get you then the left one will
You load sixteen tons what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
If these songs continue on this blog it's not doing anybody any good. Please remove them ASAP.
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